3.8 suggested changes for Fulgore

patch
rebalance
fulgore
Tags: #<Tag:0x00007f74b66329c8> #<Tag:0x00007f74b6632630> #<Tag:0x00007f74b6631eb0>
#141

I thought LK blade dash with a slight charge was 0 on block?

#142

It has 3 levels of charge. Charging slightly makes it -1, charging slightly more (don’t know the exact number of frames) leaves you at 0 and full charge is +1 or +2 if I’m not mistaken

#143

Gotcha. Didn’t remember the exact numbers.

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#144

Well I definitely appreciate the work you put in, but I agree with DarthStilnox. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, your opponent determines how much meter you get more than you do. Your opponent respected you way too much, he sat and blocked while you cr.mk -> blade dash. I think a lot of people don’t really realize how hard they should be pressuring Fulgore. If he was constantly in your face you would 1.) not be gaining meter, and 2.) being forced to decide whether to risk a DP or not - and yes, DP would get him off of you and net you like 6% damage with no follow up and negligible spin gain, but him baiting it gets him a full combo, which not only obviously hurts, but ALSO wrecks whatever spin gain you previously earned. If you trade opening each other up, they most likely win, as Fulgore does less damage than most of the cast now.

I don’t think anyone outside of top level pros really understands that unlike the entire rest of the cast, throwing out moves like f.hk with jago won’t ever get shadow countered, and actually TAKE AWAY Fulgore’s meter gain, rather than give it to him. Its like everyone is conditioned to NOT play that way because it gives all the other characters a ton of meter. For example: under normal circumstances Jago’s forward f.k -> heavy sword over and over again would be a terrible idea against every other character because after the second loop they’d have meter to shadow counter (and before you tear me apart on saying that there’s a 4 frame gap, I recognize this, but Jago also has a dp and his will come out first if you both use it, he’s in the driver’s seat here, and thanks to the priority system if he goes f hk it will beat Fulgore’s 4 frame normals). However, you do that all day against Fulgore, he’s stuck not gaining meter, and his only way out is DP. Granted he HAS a DP, so he CAN get out, but your opponent puts you in the position of risking a DP or staying stuck with no meter and a completely useless instinct mode.

I’d genuinely like to see how you handle an opponent who’s constantly up in your face, forcing you to either DP or block. THOSE are the games where Fulgore gets no meter.

*****Also, if you continue to play Fulgore, here’s a bit of advice because I did enjoy seeing him from your perspective: linkers don’t reduce spin speed so you can use eye lasers in combo as a linker for better frame data for manuals without sacrificing spin speed.

#145

If you’re the Jago player doing F+HK, or F+HK xx Heavy Laser Sword, why would you DP after Fulgore blocks those? Jago is +2 after both, so him doing a DP is a needless risk, since he can press his advantage with a lower-risk light or medium normal. In fact, because he’s +2, if Jago and Fulgore both DP, Fulgore will win that exchange. Test it out to see for yourself.

Also, Jago’s F+HK hits on frame 9 and is plus 2. If he’s doing it consecutively, it can be interrupted by 5 or 6 frame attacks, which includes throws. The priority system isn’t necessary here.

#146

P much said most of what I was gonna say. Also, this is a pretty specific situation–in a lot of other common defensive situations in KI, a DP is a much stronger tool than a shadow counter.

#147

Alright, my math was off, but that’s all the more reason why Jago would consider a DP. I’m pretty sure there’s too much pushback for a throw though. I give up, fulgore is still top tier and if anything, deserves more nerfs.

They could pretty much just remove him at this point, my thunder that I seriously haven’t played since s2 wins more than my fulgore now.

#148

I was referring to non-charged blade dash.

+3 with 71 frames of charge according to the Killer Instinct Frame Data spreadsheet.

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#149

Come on man, nobody is making statements about Fulgore’s strength in the last few posts, we are just correcting your frame data so you will know the game better. We want to converse with you, but you’re making it hard. :\

To add my points, DPing when you are at plus frames (Jago, in this instance) is usually a bad idea, because as Leo said, you can use lower-risk tools to beat the same options that DP would beat. That’s the benefit of plus frames, which is Jago’s main strength as a close range fighter (although Fulgore has a few normals that are suited for the task too). In general, Jago players should not be looking to DP after they put themselves +2 from fwd+HK. Instead, they should be looking to do one of 3 things:

  1. Frame trap your button with a normal like close MK (ie, prove it’s still his turn and keep his turn with tight offense)
  2. Take an extended turn (ie, another fwd+HK or an overhead) because he predicts you will respect the plus frames and block more
  3. Stop attacking to bait a DP or the defense guessing with shadow counter, which should always beat 1 and situationally beat 2. (The onus is on the defensive/minus-framed player to take the risk)

DP is just a riskier option that beats the same things as 1).

#150

Full charge is like +4 I thought

#151

@DarthStilnox corrected me on that already :sweat_smile:

#152

Its definitely +3, I just tested it too.

#153

No sweat man - I asked a bunch of different questions! :slight_smile:

So one of the things I want to preface with my response is making sure we all understand the difference between “high level” play" and “perfect” play. Babyness of my Fulgore notwithstanding, I’d be willing to state these matches qualify as a “high level” set. High level play, even among the very best users of a character, doesn’t mean “perfect” play. In my 2nd place run at KIWC, I can safely say that all of my matches (to include both my perfects) actually had at least 3-5 misses or mistakes (missed AA’s, execution errors, etc) from me. People are going to miss things even at high level - I don’t recommend dismissing a performance (with any character) by just saying “well he didn’t do xyz perfectly, so that doesn’t represent what good play looks like.” Not necessarily - good players miss things all the time actually. A lot of times their real strength is how well they hide, compensate, or play around such things.

Now that that’s said, I took the liberty of actually tabulating some of the statistics from this set:


Definitions
Good AA: any time I jumped and was anti-aired
Unchecked Jump-ins: any jump-in at a range and time where opponent had an actual opportunity to anti-air, but did not. This does not include deep or meaty jump-in’s. Also does not include neutral situations where I jumped and he near-simultaneously pressed a button that I sailed over, as opponent in that situation had no opportunity to AA. This does not imply that opponent was hit by the jump-in, only that he allowed it to occur without AA’ing.
Whiff DP’s: any DP performed that did not make contact with my opponent, whether through DP bait (TK-ORZ) or execution error.
Missed DP’s: a DP that was either blocked or whiffed.

The reason I think these numbers are interesting (and why I thought this would be a good discussion!) is because they give a good example of how conditioning works. This is really of a piece with my “Developing the Read” thread over in the Hisako sub-forum, in that it shows in a very real sense how easily people’s perspectives can be colored by the opponent’s play. Additionally, it shows a bit of how risk/reward dynamics can (can, not necessarily will) shake out on high-risk plays like DP’ing out of pressure.

I DP’d out of roughly 20% of all blocked blade dashes. A one-in-five chance of me DP’ing at negative frames let me toss out 64 blade dashes, a decently high proportion of which I was allowed to push buttons or throw after. Now to be sure he could have challenged me better on many of these, but this is a good illustration of what we mean when we start talking about the utility of Fulgore’s meterless invincible reversal. Please recognize - I was full-combo punished on 2/3’s of my blocked DP’s (80% if you take shadow laser out of the equation). And still DP was often a good bet, not because I built a bit of reactor charge or because I got 8% in damage; but because those DP’s, both the ones that hit and the ones that were blocked, have an effect on the mental state of my opponent. In this case, it contributed to an environment where I could often take back my turn for free even when I was negative.

On the other side of the coin, I defended my opponent’s ability to anti-air previously, even though the data here does not show that my opponent was a great AA’er. My definition of unchecked jump-ins here is fairly lenient, and he still didn’t anti-air even half of my jump-ins. Yet because of the fact that he AA’d me a number of times (especially early) and got good damage/recaps off of them, my perspective on his AA capabilities was such that I immediately came here to rebut the notion that he let me jump in too much.

If you get nothing else from this discussion, get this: you do not always have to be right on a lot of the bets you make. Even a handful of examples of a thing can serve to very effectively condition your opponent to fear that thing. Negativity bias ensures that most people, including high-level players, will more saliently remember getting dunked for a thing than all the times said thing worked out. Automatically dismissing your option to DP because “if it gets blocked I get punished and lose all my spin speed” is the wrong paradigm, because a DP (particularly a lower-damage one like Gore’s) is about respect, not damage or meter. Your job as a player is to parlay that respect into increased pressure options and the ability to sometimes make your opponent willingly give up his turn when he doesn’t have to.

To be sure, there are many things my opponent here could have done to be more effective. But please understand that the statistics here for punishes are not bad by any stretch of the imagination, and are the kind of numbers you’ll find around the Top 64 of a 500-man tournament like EVO. Punishing 87% of all missed DP’s not involving shadow laser (74% of all missed DP’s) isn’t unheard of even in a Top 8 - Thompxson gets away with light DP’s a lot more often than he should, because KI is fast and sometimes you just miss punishes. Don’t play with the expectation that everything you do will miss and be punished optimally; don’t play under the assumption that because something is risky that it cannot be a good option.

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#154

@Paramisery I don’t know what to tell you man. I’ve lost matches with Gore, but I have yet to run into a situation where I’m just completely shut out of meter. Even when I’ve lost rounds pretty badly I’ve always had at least a full stock of meter, and when I take their first lifebar I normally have at least two. When opponents want to pressure me super hard and not let me breathe, I back them the hell up with DP’s until they stop. DP->backdash nets you decent reactor bro. If you really prize meter above all else, then after you get a successful one just hang back, and force them to do something unsafe if they want to slow your reactor down.

Additionally, unless you just never touch your opponent, I find Fulgore gets pretty good meter build from offense. I seriously don’t think he’s any worse off for getting 1000% mauled than anyone else in the cast - no one gets meter if you’re just getting massacred. If you’re blocking stuff, then guess what? Their turn will eventually end, and then you get to apply pressure for a bit and increase your spin speed. By far the biggest surprise I’ve had playing Gore (other than that the ■■■■■■■ actually is fun to play) is how little reactor speed you lose for getting hit. If you’ve had a good sequence of meter building, you’re liable to get a pip or two even if you get tagged for full combo immediately after that sequence ends.

I’m sure I’ll eventually run into a match where resources are a problem, but it genuinely has not happened yet. Resource issues for the first round, sure. Resource issues for the whole match? Nope.

#155

its quite rare i have meter issues, since i dont rely too much on energy systems until i get decent reactor speed going. usually i take advantage of his spears and try to control the neutral before i start going for vortex set ups. fulgore has really good normals, you can tag people with st.MK, st.MP also really good and his st.lk also. cr.MK frame trapping off itself was something i recently learned so that helps.

usually when i get massacred is when my execution fails or i fight a jago is really savvy at neutral game and going full throttle off wall splat mix ups. also people who turtle up and seem to know 100% what im going to do next, or guess breaking non stop (and when i go for a CB they seem to know) lol. being unpredictable is what i need to work on

he has a reactor spin build up tech im not sure youre aware of @STORM179. basically you do his new target combo, sweep and destroy > heavy DP. youll get 50% spin increase off just 1 application. sweep the leg cobra kai style, and get more spin from it

#156

You are more entitled to speak about game dynamics and for sure the data you provide are robust enough to back your argument, but I still have the sensation that Fulgore’s average meter gain during a match is not as much as what appears to come out in that set, although it can be more than decent once you get a better understanding of meter management.

This said, I’m trying to learn something from your kind effort, and I played a couple matches yesterday trying to get a less frantic, more balanced approach, especially for what concerns energy-based mixups.

I would heavily appreciate some feedback on one of them :slight_smile:
Please keep in mind I’m a lower gold-tier player and forgive my execution, it was close to horrendous but playing 1 late-night hour a week on average doesn’t help.

#157

Alternatively, if it’s a character you know you can bully on wakeup, you can do meaty close MP, stand LK, stand LK, crouch MK.

+1 to 5f startup – frame trap
+2 to 5f startup – frame trap
+2 to 7f startup – frame trap

At the end of that, you’re still +2, and at midrange. You can safely back up a bit and then force them to approach, after having boosted your reactor speed by 7 points.

Also, I’ve been noticing the number 8% for his DP, so I assume you’re talking about the medium one. It’s not a huge deal but I would like to point out that since it will likely be counterhitting, medium DP would actually do 10%, and heavy DP on counterhit does 11%.

#158

Well, so much for cr. LK and cr.MK being as reliable

#159

So much for being able to build meter outside of combos, you lose your turn after pretty much any blocked attack.

It’s like all the balance decisions were made under the assumption that he builds meter the same as the rest of the cast.

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#160

It’s like you’re playing under the assumption that fulgore having meter is the same as the rest of the cast.

:thinking::thinking::thinking:

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