That’s the joke, Infil. Apparently that stuff are things that these guys lose to whenever they go on ranked
Some interesting stuff in here. I generally don’t comment much on patches because I don’t keep frame data in my head and it’s tough for me to imagine all the changes playing out in a match. But I think this one is interesting for a couple of reasons. I think some of these changes are going to be really tough for people to understand - and probably won’t affect the game for most of us.
With the exception of Kilgore, this patch (expectedly) has very minor adjustments to most characters. Jago is the huge exception, with Glacius and Gargos seeing some significant changes. I think the Gargos change is a little bit obvious, especially after watching Sleep use the izuna drop/minion summon to great effect all through the (truly excellent) KIWC. I always thought that move did a ton of damage for an ostensibly lower damage character and if you are holding meter for a minion it seems like always the right thing to do. I don’t think this is going to wreck many Gargos players but it makes things a little trickier for him.
Jago. The interesting thing to me on Jago is just how many, seemingly very small changes are included here. It’s a long long list of things that are only going to matter a little bit here and there, but will likely add up. And most of these changes are only going to affect truly high level play where both players fully understand the character, his frame data and are fully capable of punishing things that have short frame windows for punishment etc. But the direction is all clearly nerfing - there’s no “berf” or buff to balance the changes. It makes me wonder what the testers are seeing that maybe I’m not if they think Jago is this much of a problem to the game. Not a criticism, just a curiosity. Watching Thompson struggle against Sleep’s zoning ARIA body (I know watching anyone struggle against Sleep is not a representative sample), it’s tough to see Jago as a character that is great at full screen even before the 3.7 patch. I actually found myself wondering if he needed full screen shadow windkick back. Having said that, I think people might be overreacting to the long list of nerfs and thinking that he’s going to change more than he really has. Med windkick seems to be the biggest change.
Just for those of us less skilled with the frame data, maybe one of you guys who are could just list out the interactions that change here for med. windkick (I’m not staring directly at you, @Infilament…). Am I wrong that you can now mash jab after blocking either light and med windkick with most characters without danger of being hit by Jago? But Jago will recover enough to block using light? It may seem basic, but walk us through some interactions here. I always got a lot of mileage out of throw after blocking med. windkick - which seemed to work unless Jago DP’ed. Is that still the case?
As far as Glacius, I think they got rid of some stupid (puddle punch into shadow hail just didn’t need to be a thing), and then buffed some stuff that I hadn’t thought about. It is interesting to see that with the fully invincible reversal on heavy puddle punch, and now some better buttons that they are strengthening Glacius’s weakness. But these are some pretty small frame changes that aren’t going to affect most people. I’m kind of curious what they are seeing internally that I’m not. I’ll take all the help I can get, but I will be stunned if these changes improve my Glacius game. Maybe the change to Ice Lance…
With this change, these are Jago’s and his opponent options
After light windkick(-4)
Jago is safe from jabs(5 frames startup, hitting on frame 5), but not from Raam’s shadow command grab(as he always wasn’t) or any 3 frame attack(like a 3 frames DP).
Against opponents without DP, Jago could still use this to make a mixup with DP, low, overhead, throw, block
-If Jago DPs, wins to throw attempts and any non invincible move, loses to blocking or invincible moves. If you were doing something and hits you, it’s around 18% damage.
-If Jago Throws, wins to blocking, techs throw attempts, loses to fast normals
-If Jago blocks, wins to dp attempts, loses to throw attempts
-Using H/L mixups is another option
Now, his M.windkick is unsafe, which means you could mash a light and hit him. If you are a bit late, he still could hit you with a dp tho(if you are late and he is buffering a dp, his 3 invul frames will save him from slow/late normals)
Overall, this means that Jago should use laser sword to stay +, or use light windkick(which has less range) to play the dp mixup.
Overall, the change aims to make Jago worse at mid range, but is “mostly” the same at short range. At least thats what I get from it
Dude, you have no idea how much these changes are going to help him in some matchups.
Just to name one, with the changes Glacius got, and the changes Jago has in his m. windkick, Glacius probably has now the upper hand until Jago is at light windkick/F HK range
Glacius has reclaimed the edge over the MU.
Tears of joy.
You realize those are not contradictory statements right?
“Small frame changes that are not gonna affect most people”
Not sure what I’m contradicting.
“… how much these changes are going to help in some matchups”
“Most people aren’t going to notice”
Are not in conflict with each other. They way you quoted me in your post implies that they are. You may not agree with me on the latter, but the former certainly isn’t an argument against it.
Don’t agree completely but I’ll drop it, no need to go off topic.
Fair enough. More productively, why don’t you talk about what matchups this is going to help with, and why it matters.
So are the new ultimates coming with this patch?
Jago is the first one that comes to mind, but there are definitely others that I’m forgetting.
Before this patch, once Jago got in midrange with a stack of meter Glacius had zero safe options besides jumping away. Any other option would get punished. Lance? -8, shadow wind kick. St.HP? -7, shadow wind kick. Sweep? -11, shadow wind kick. Hail? shadow wk. Shatter? Shadow wk. Shoulder? DP. Puddle punch? Why would you do that in the first place lol. Walk/dash up grab? Good luck with that. Once Jago gets in Glacius basically has no choice but to take his punishment or back himself into the corner.
But now, since none of his pokes are punishable by Jago at range anymore, Glacius can check him much more safely and push Jago away to give him more space. That is huge.
May 2nd if I recall. I’ll have to check the stream archives from Saturday.
Kind of a side note, but i have noticed a lot of the notes say they added stuff to training room. Special properties and whatnot. Dare i dream that there’s updated frame data, but just not noted in the…well…notes?
If you ask me, Kim just needs fixes. Currently, anyways.
Aww, that’s seems like forever away! Injustice 2 won’t be too long after.
Bein safe on s.HP means that he can use it against Aganos to get over armor and not be punished if blocked/not be forced to cancel into a special that Aganos may block.
c.HK being -5 means that some chars may not be able to punish it at certain ranges. That’s insane, and it’s even better if covered by a Hail since allows you to move faster after being blocked, so blocked c.HK -> delayed Hail-> Glacius starts to move 6 frames(!) earlier
Ice lance being better gives him better neutral control over some characters with good range, like Kan-Ra, Orchid, Kim, Rash or Arbiter
I could see people trying to punish ice lance with a forward travelling move(ala windkick) and being hit by Glacius Puddle punch. People now is forced to respect that button on block
Definitely Jago is now worse at midrange and Glacius is now better - at a range he already liked. But maybe I just have the wrong mindset here. I have never really thought Glacius was spending a lot of time playing “footsies” with Jago at mid range. Most (there’s that word again) Jago’s I play aren’t walking into mid range and then holding block to wait for m to throw out a normal that they can then punish.
I can see why beating shadow windkick after block is a big deal, since that nullifies a lot of delayed Hail “cover” for Glacius. What’s the startup on Shadow Windkick?
Yeah, this I can see.
The sweep doesn’t get used a lot, which may be why I don’t see it get punished a lot. What’s a “typical” sweep recover after block?
From what I remember, most sweeps are -5.
Woops, I meant “Aganos may absorb via armor(and punish)”