Wulf target combos> shadow> unbreakable


#1

HELP! Ive been against this WUlf tonight that uses these long unbreakable combos and its not cool! lol
He doesn a hit confirm, then what looks like a target combo, then shadow leap, then light linker and you cant break any of those 1st 8 hits.

** You can break the light linker just after the shadow leap, but its quick and you have to anticipate it or guess.

WHy cant I break these? Is there a reset somewhere in there Im not seeing?

@Infilament @STORM179


#2

Target Combos are considered one move. You can only break after an opener or a third move has been done. Target Combo into Shadow is only considered 2 moves so it is not breakable yet. Anything after the Shadow is breakable though.


#3

Yeah but the target is 3 hits, plus a hit confirm at the start, thats 4 hits and then a shadow leap…5 more hits… that’s a little bit ridiculous thats 9 hits cant be broken. THen he puts in 1 light linker into ender and that’s a legit combo? 1 break point out of 10-12 hits plus the ender as more damage cash out. Why wouldnt anyone use anything else?


#4

The target combo into a shadow is all opener.


#5

I just tested it out. Cr.light into target combo into shadow is unbreakable. You get 3 unbreakable attacks if they aren’t openers. That hit confirm into target combo into shadow is unbreakable. There is a breakable point after that.

Standing Heavy into Shadow does more damage than target combo into shadow.


#6

What everyone else has said. I haven’t always been a fan of it, but it is what it is, and has been that way for a while.


#7

Target combos drawback comes from it’s damage scaling. I can imagine lp > Target combo > shadow opener probably pushes the KV so high that they’ll only get one move afterwards for maybe something around 30% damage at best? Can’t be anything higher than a lvl 2 ender.

Also, in Wulf’s case, it’s definitely shadow counterable if they’re trying to mix you up with resets that start with target combos. They’re not like, say, Cinder, who could blow up a shadow counter attempt as his target combo. Or Kim where moves after specific target combos count as breakable manuals rather than openers.

I look at it this way. Wulf annoys the daylights out of me. But I’d take getting opened up by a target combo over overpower anytime.


#8

Hit confirm -> shadow as unbreakable opener is common for many characters, not just Wulf. If he chooses to do one-chance into ender after that, that’s up to him, but the number of hits really has no bearing on whether a combo is “good”.

(As others have said, starting with a jab and then further increasing the scaling with target combo might give him lots of time to hit confirm, but his damage won’t be as good as using a heavy which he could also hit confirm with)

I think KI should have more hit-confirmable stuff, not less, so this seems pretty fine to me.


#9

Hit confirm wasnt the question or issue…its about how a character can hit that many times in a row without a break point. High level players may know this but there isnt much knowledge out there explaining this to say a beginner or even an intermediate player. You hear about this 3 hit break rule, yet this doesnt apply…its not even close. this is 9 hits before its breakable. 3 hit rule but this one is a 10 hit rule.


#10

I’m not a high level player in any sense, but I sought out info on this and other things that have confused me. The info is out there in back forum threads, knowledgeable players, social media, etc. The resources are out there.

For comparison sake I looked this up…

LP confirm > target combo > shadow ragged edge > HP double > eclipse ender = 33% (92pts of KV, not much else you can fit in this combo)

Overpower > shadow ragged edge > HP double > eclipse ender = 39% (32pts of KV, tons more room for more damage)

I can’t tell from the way your posts are written whether your issue lies in the number of hits the first example allows before a breakable point occurs or if you believe it to be a bug or glitch in the combo system. If it’s the latter, basically, the game treats Wulf’s target combo as 1 ‘hit’ within the scope of the 3 hit rule, what @Sasuke99I stated. If it’s the former, the Wulf is doing less damage in the long run. When you look at the numbers of it, even though it’s more hits, it’s less damage.


#11

Here’s a question then, if Sadira was to do a jumping HK + Shadow Widow’s Bite… that would be unbreakable? I rarely use this type of attack… Just curious.


#12

Sigh… you are a high level player…Im speaking of casual players, not me, not you, not really anyone on this forum. I figured this out just by playing and then brought the topic here for discussion.

My question was, why is there combos with 9 hits unbreakable, yet there is the 3 hit rule? This causes lock outs on people that dont know and there is nothing in game for the beginner or casual player to know this. there fore they get locked out, and opponent can pop instinct or 1 break point in to ultra , ect… = frustration.

Its not a huge deal i guess, but it was worth discussing to see what others think, how to recognize it in other characters, how to use in with your own character, and why is this not mentioned in game for beginners?


#13

It would not since Jumping attacks are considered openers.

Some moves have multiple hits but are considered one move. Shadows usually have 5 moves but are only considered one special. Omen’s forward heavy is still one move even though it hits twice. It isn’t really a 3 hit rule as much as it is a 3 move rule.


#14

Is breakable. Jumping attacks are always openers in KI.

As I recall, the 3-hit rule was implemented later in the game to prevent advantaged normals from gaming the system and doing a bunch of unbreakable damage. The line had to be drawn somewhere, and IG chose 3 hits (or “moves”, as Sasuke rightfully points out). At a certain level it’s an arbitrary cutoff, the same way lockouts are 3 seconds instead of 2.75.

Not really on the first part. You can mash quite contentedly during the actual target combo hits - it isn’t until later in the combo (after an opener or the considered “third” hit) that it’s possible to generate a timing lockout for yourself. It is true that a casual doesn’t really have an easy in-game way to explain the system however.

For the same reason the game doesn’t teach you what a safe jump or late teching are. It’s largely unnecessary to know or understand even at an intermediate level, and if the goal is to teach someone just enough so that they can go out and have fun then it isn’t important enough to make the cut. So the player won’t be able to break for .75 seconds after getting hit…they’ll eventually get a window that is breakable, and the upper damage limit for such a combo will tend to be relatively low even if they miss that break.


#15

I understand that…but if you can break each individual hit, then it literally “counts” as 1 hit each. You see what Im getting at now? I understand how it works, but to teach a new comer or someone that doesnt understand…the wording can be confusing.


#16

So you can mash break and it wont lock out on the target combo? Interesting! I guess i need to test it out and see what happens and what doesnt. It all goes down so fast in a heated match its hard to truly tell what happens and what doesnt.
thanks for the info


#17

The simplest way to explain this is, grounded normals that are not command normals are not openers which includes target combo’s. Jumping normals, specials and grounded specials, and most command normals, Shadow Jago Axe Kick for example are openers. A breaker window happens only after an opener. Cinder can dp Hp Hp Mp Shadow Inferno for 15 hits unbreakable.

To really break it down though, target combo is theoretically one move.

Target combo, Shadow, Break window. That’s your “third” input or move breakdown. Just because a move hits multiple times doesn’t make it 3 separate actions.


#18

It is actually extremely rare for a command normal to track as an opener in KI. Shago’s axe kick is literally the only such move I can think of that has its particular properties (tracks as more of a special than anything, ie doesn’t break armor), although beast normals like Tusk’s sword normals can also be openers. Those are the only two characters I can think of with normals/command normals that are openers though.

Yep. As far as the game is concerned, it’s the same as you mashing HK on Jago’s forward roundhouse if you eat it raw. It’s not a combo, so the game simply eats the input.


#19

Shago Axe kick, Glay Med Ice Lance, but there are soo few actual command normals in KI as well. Trying to mull the cast in my head and it’s about the same. I could have sworn Wulf command HP was considered an opener. Those are really the only 3 that come to mind for me. Maybe that HP from Kan-Ra that staggers? Are there any other command normals in the game? I can’t think of any that have any special properties other than those.


#20

Glacius lance isn’t an opener. Most of the cast has one or two command normals I believe.

Jago overhead+fwd roundhouse, Wulf overpower, Glacius lance+back+HP, Thunder overhead, Orchid overhead, Spinal overhead+slide (which is an opener), Fulgore overhead+axis slash, Shago step kick, Maya/Mira back+HP, Riptor flame carpet+flame mortar (which are projectile openers), Hisako descent, Aganos step walks+upflick+peacemaker stuff, Omen’s fwd+HP, Tusk fwd+MP, Gargos j.MP, Eyedol overhead, etc etc. That’s just off the top of my head, and I cut off early because I got bored. Most (all?) of the KI cast has at least one command normal, and while there are a few command normals that track as openers the vast majority definitely don’t.