As a competitive Thunder main, I’m just happy that the s3 changes to Wulf have induced his former inability to telegraph. I would find myself having to guess break everything he was dishing out; with the exception of a heavy linker, & Medium/heavy rapid auto doubles. Hell, even then it was still quite a bit difficult. His hit boxes are so huge. The moment you think you’re outside of strike range . . CRACK!!, he tags you & the combos begin. I think his new changes are going to balance him out very nice like, with the rest of the cast. He won’t completely suck against zoners, & he won’t completely demolish characters on the roster that can’t zone. I like it, & I can’t wait to beat up on him this go around. I finally get my revenge . On a serious note though, Gutter pointed out something very interesting on one of his live streams in accordance to Wulf’s damage output on a bread & butter chain . .
Wulf’s HK (which staggers) to Grab, deals 20% in S3.
Thunders SCOE (which requires the opposer to be still) deals 20%
But eh, I’ll take that over consecutive feral canceling, big ■■■ hit boxes, & being stuffed out of every normal I have.
Wulf’s HK stagger into grab is in no way comparable to CotE.
Check out the damage in the s3 changes for s1 on youtube. Shadow COTE & Wulfs HK stagger to grab, both deal 20%. You don’t have to take my word for it; look for yourself.
One is a command grab and the other is a hit? I don’t see the comparison here.
Thats the point I’m making. One is a Hk to grab that deals the same amount of damage as a Shadow command grab. Isn’t that a bit odd? Considering they aren’t nearly the same kind of attack? They deal the same damage. 20%, yet one should be significantly stronger than the other . .
Wutlfs grab is techable. Thunder’s isn’t.
The grab is untechable on stagger isn’t it?
He did get longer Hamstring reach and a Diveslash, I’m gonna like playing the Thunder MU more now. I wonder if neutral jump Diveslash can cross over whiffed COTE and land in time to get an opener in on the other side.
Also, I think you can tech on Stagger. That you can manual after it makes me wonder if it works the same as an opener or the tick of a tick throw.
If I’m not mistaken, you might be able to tech it. Even then, the damage is still fairly questionable for normals in comparison to a shadow command grab.
By-the-by, are we talking about on counter-hit wrt HK stagger into grab?
Nah, just basic HK stagger into grab. It does a solid 20%. I’m sure it probably even matches other shadow moves as well. I just don’t feel like SCOTE should be one of them.
Throws are techable after a stagger. Think of them as mid-screen wall splats.
I still don’t really understand what you’re saying. You want shadow CotE to do MORE damage than it does now?
Ah, gotcha. Even considering that a throw after stagger can be teched, it still doesn’t make sense to me that Wulf’s HK to Grab can do 20%; the same as Thunder’s shadow COTE. I’m not saying I want Thunder’s shadow COTE to be stronger than 20%, I’m just trying to make sense of it. Here we have this brute of a grappler who has the highest output damage in the game overall, yet one of Wulf’s normals (that staggers) into a grab deals an equivalent amount of damage as the strongest characters Shadow command grab. That doesn’t seem odd? Is it just me? . .
If Wulf’s HK to grab deals 20%, then what makes Thunder’s Shadow command grab so special? . . The fact that its a conditional 0 frame command grab (Which can be neutral jumped, or stuffed with the right timing)?
It’s 5 frames, goes half screen, leads to a juggle or a setup (and in S3 also a flipout), can’t be jumped after the freeze, etc.
Wulf’s HK is a relatively stubby normal that is slow and, generally, pretty much never used in S2. People will lab up some setups in S3 but it’s not this amazing, all-purpose normal. You see shadow CotE 3 times per game when Thunder is playing.
A move is a lot more than just its damage.
Yes it’s 5/0 with a 103 adv. on hit; & to my knowledge it goes a lengthy distance, but definitely not half screen. I’m not sure if it still causes the hard knock down in s3 either. It might be pretty bland for set ups if it doesn’t. I know sammamish ender without the juggle does though. You make a good point with the new flip out mechanic & the juggling potential (which is breakable). Double the meter could be pretty devastating considering the flip out gig is a success. I get what you’re saying. Thats all fine. However, it still doesn’t justify that two normals should equate to the strength of a Shadow command grab from the games “strongest” character… ( I say that in accordance to Thunder’s reputation for high damage output). With Sabre’s dash after the hard knock down on his throw he has devistating set ups at his disposal as well. Is it not just as good? I think the only difference here is that it’s going to cost Thunder one stock of meter to “potentially” achieve a similar outcome.
I just realized, that Wulf’s HK to grab actually does 1% more damage than Thunder’s shadow COTE. It’s a solid 21% lol. As they said in the beginning of the stream though. . there are things that are subject to change. I jus think Wulf is super good in the best way possible for the game now. I’m excited. I’m thinking about even picking him up to play with!
You keep talking like people are gonna get hit by Wulf st.HK all the time or something. It’s going to be a lot harder to hit people with that normal than shadow CotE.
Thunder has massive damage output, easily the highest in the game (and I’d be surprised if it wasn’t the highest in S3 as well). 20% for a command grab the size of Thunder’s shadow CotE is pretty ludicrous, especially since he gets super potent offense from it. His high damage comes from everything else about him, too. Lockout damage, stray hit damage, everything is just best in class.
Anyway, how are you even testing the damage numbers for Wulf stagger HK into throw? That combo is not possible in S2. Are you just doing HK raw, then throwing raw, then adding up the numbers?
We’ll agree to disagree there. IMO, its definitely easier to frame trap & pressure with all of Wulf’s normals than it is to raw shadow command grab with Thunder. Throwing out a raw SCOTE isn’t smart unless you’re plus & can advance on block. Even then, your opposer has to be standing still. The dog has some of the best standing normal’s in the game. At high competitive play, I get stuffed a lot attempting to go head up with frame traps of my own against really good Wulfs. It’s easier to land Wulf’s HK than most enthusiast know. As Keits mentioned, there is going to be a lot more use for some of Wulf’s least used normals, as season 3 mechanics seemingly take precedence over what moves are used, & what move’s aren’t. Every character has class A tactics about them. The game has MU’s, & thats okay. However, I’m speaking specifically in the realm of these two very specific moves, which factually display damage output for season 3 (Seen in the s3 world cup updates for s1 cast). Wulf getting 21% off of a standing heavy kick (which staggers) to a grab; & Thunder gets 20% off of a raw Shadow command grab (Which we all know was one of strongest, if not the strongest shadow move in the game). My question is how, & why? . . Why is Wulf able to potentially do more damage without the use of meter off of two normals, while Thunder has to use meter to potentially induce the same kind of result for less damage? If I’m not mistaken, isn’t shadow Cote supposed to be the strongest shadow move in the game? Maybe not? Both characters have set up opportunities after these moves, but one doesn’t have to use meter & gets the stronger start up. It doesn’t make sense to me as far as damage scaling goes. I’m just trying to make sense of it.
I don’t know, you seem to be hugely underplaying how easy it is to land shadow call of the earth. Think of it this way, there are more requirements to landing Wulf’s HK into stagger into grab than there are to landing SCOTE raw.
Stagger requirements: Opponent must be in a grounded state, must be within range, must not be blocking. Opponent must then not tech the throw (Also, isn’t the throw corner only? On stream Keits made Steve walk to the corner to be able to show off stagger into throw.) 21%
SCOTE requirements: Opponent must be in a grounded state, must be within range. 20%
What moves were changed to “telegraph” them more than in S2? Only his Leaping slash was slowed down on start up…and even with that…why would you have to guess break and what changes to S3 allow you to not guess break? Im not understanding this part? Did I miss something in the changes?