Why is Vortex's strength completely ambiguous?

I have to admit, this is pretty darn good advice. unless TJ wants to spend meter on a cashout, those vortexes won’t do him much good.

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I played TJ till he got to LVL 50, and I’m pretty sure you can let the second punch go early.

Honestly, cashing out the juggle is rarely worth the meter anyway.

I thought the same rule should have applied to Omens corner throw to special move instead of completely cutting out the move after throw. But…they did it anyway and left other characters with guess breaking moves.

Guess breaking Omens corner combo is too much but you still have to guess break TJ, Cinder, Shagos diagonal DP, and others.

And if there are tell signs of strength of the characters I mentioned…well, how would you know? There isnt anything out here that tells you what strength is visually in this game.

I didn’t know that was a thing, so I took it to the lab, and it turns out that TJ can absolutely fire the second swing early. He still slides the same distance, so you can always gauge that way, but it’s tricky when considering early swings - he always slides the same distance between swings 1 and 2, the variation lays in how far he slides before the first swing, which may or may not be enough to notice.

Which leads me back to the better advice - don’t break it. At least until they notice and start cashing you out post-upper, and even only then if you’re really worried about it.

What if the TJ does the multiple linker version in the corner keeping you in a juggle state? No spinning uppercut to even look at for a break? Ive seen them do this up 3-4 times…how do you break that without guessing?

You don’t. You hold that, and try not to get opened up again on the inevitable reset attempt.

Shago’s diagonal DP is reaction breakable when surged. What guesses are you referring to against Cinder and TJ? Juggle manuals are guesses for the whole cast, and TJ can make things ambiguous, but unless he’s nestled right up against the corner there’s always a tell for his specials.

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I would have to see footage of this. For the life of me, after launched by the first Vortex Linker, I could not get a single non-neutral Vortex to come out w/o recapping first. But, ultimately, it’s as @STORM179 says, you hold it and don’t get opened up like that again. You get your arse out of that corner while you’re still alive.

Not every little detail has to be perfectly equivalent, that’s not how “balance” or “fairness” work in a fighting game (at least one worth playing). Your argument is the same as “Why does Omen get to airdash? Jago doesn’t airdash,” or “Why does Omen get to throw several random-pattern fireballs and cover himself with orbs or make freestanding auto-tracking fireballs to keep me locked in blockstun pretty much forever and daring me to get hit out of my SC attempt 12 seconds later when I finally have a bar while mixing me up super ambiguously with almost a full second of invincibility wiggling in my face? TJ can’t do anything remotely like that,” - character capabilities are not, and cannot be 1:1 across the board. That’s Rock’em Sock’em Robots.

His after burner in mid air… the hah hah hah move lol …how do you know what strength he is using? It can only be Med or Light correct?

Tj can do the Vortex punch multiple times in a row as a juggle. I cant tell the difference in strength. Now his tremor has the little chem trails, but they are hard to notice the first time if you haven’t paid attention to them in a while.

Now come on that’s not the same question…my question is why did they take away his ambiguous corner move that no one uses while TJ still has one and o the characters still have similar “guess breaking equivalents”. Thats the reason they removed Omens after the throw because you had to guess, but it removed other parts of his game in the process. So its a fair statement to ask why not the others.

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What part is recreational and what am I looking for to determine the strength?

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I don’t know what you’re referring to :confused: If you’re talking about trailblazer, then he’s bound to whatever the first trailblazer was. Light trailblazer goes up, medium straight, heavy down.

The angle and travel distance of Shago’s uppercut changes depending on the strength. Light DP goes shortest, heavy farthest.

I feel you, but I think your question is a specific flavor of the general sort of reasoning I tried to illustrate. As to truly answering your question… I couldn’t tell what their point-by-point reasoning was. I don’t think it was a part of an agenda to eradicate all combo-system guessing, but more a matter of pulling an accidental tool that had lent itself to an undesirable outcome (and here I’d put my money on degeneracy vs. ease of use in his corner game).

It’s worth noting that, while you speak truth, the differences are incredibly subtle. Certainly moreso than TJ’s Vortex early-presses. Pay attention to the VFX trails, much like TJ’s Tremor. Light is wispy little swirls, and they bulk up with strength. The reactable portion is actually the second DP (you should notice the strength, thus informing your reaction, on the first spin), so break during the second spin.

TJ’s Vortex can be true forced-guesses if the TJ makes it so. I assume that the devs allowed TJ to keep this forced-guess because… well, perhaps they didn’t notice? Or perhaps they’re okay with TJ having access to such a tool, considering the rest of his kit. I mean, he’s got some cool tricks w/ Powerline cancels, Backstep manuals, and flipout setups, but he actually seems sorta on the execution intensive side (which goes a little ways in FG balance considerations, methinks) but not so grimy that access to a forced-guess would put him in reasonable risk of becoming degenerate in a dangerous way.

And, honestly, I’m pretty sure the Omen throw-cancels were a bug in the first place. I used the hell out of them (for corner>legs loops) and miss them, but nowhere does it suggest he should be able to cancel his throw into anything other than EX.Orda/Rasha. In that sense, we’re lucky to have kept the manual-cancel window that allows for the forced guess on the link (if we’re one-chancing)… I just look at it as less damage for the corner-guess, and incentive to play a little more of the combo game off of combo throw. Now sometimes I like going for counterbreaks off of a Legs Linker, cuz I know they’re antsy and their odds are better. Just some alternative perspectives to consider, I guess.

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You think so? I’ve never really noticed any special effects attached to Shago’s uppercuts. For whatever reason, I’ve never had issue breaking them when surged - I feel like the different strengths are pretty noticeable in terms of how far Shago travels. But then again, I didn’t have any issues breaking pre-trail TJ tremors either.

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O.o

You’ve got really good eyes and/or reactions.

shrug I can do it.

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Well, you’ve got really good eyes and/or reactions too.

And you prompt interesting discussion of gameplay on the regular and I appreciate that. :triumph:

Afterburner is the 2 moves after trailblazer. The ones that can go in any direction. You get 2 moves after TB outside of instinct and 3 moves inside instinct (Or the 8 second heat up) Cinder also makes the sound “hah,… hah… hah”

Those 2 or 3 are hard to break for me, I dont know what strength they are. I just wait to break at the flip kick point, but thats an easy CB for them as well. I need to mix it up to keep them guessing as well.

Those are always gonna be the same strength as the first, and you can tell which strength by their trajectory.

Light goes upward.
Medium goes straight.
Heavy goes downward.

Might take a while to practice to get familiarity/memorization to jive w/ physical reaction (as with most valuable break scenarios in this game), but that’s another one that you never have to guessbreak if you don’t want to.

What about the ones that go straight up or straight down? Can they not do that? I could have sworn they could?

[[[misinformed things waz here]]]

@SonicDolphin117 I think you’re better equipped to answer this one…?