What do you want to see changed in the new KI from the old KI

If I new killer instinct was to emerge, what would you like to see new in killer instinct or what would you like to see change from the previous killer instinct? Whether it be visuals characters or etc. wat would yu personally like to see happen.
What I would like to see change in killer instinct is the developing team I would like to see double helix come back and pick up the killer killer instinct project. My reason being is because the first season was more of a technical fighting game they use frame advantages all out risks and it was a lot more smoother and cleaner play from the game in now the first season did have some of these bugs like saber wolf was too fast you couldn’t break sadira’s Air combos and there was some other broken things, but since the game Was knew that was the first set of bucks so double helix never had the chance to actually change what they wanted to change they couldn’t shape KI into the vision that they wanted to. When season two of killer instinct Was announced I was excited I played killer instinct a lot I have a lot of time played on ki. Also killer instinct was one of the first fighting games that I actually jumped into heavy so I was looking forward to it. Then I hear that double helix gets bought by Amazon and the new people to take over the project is iron galaxy I looked at the track record of iron galaxy and I thought that There was still hope for killer Instinct because iron galaxy worked on street fighter Third Strike, but I was wrong. When TJ Combo got revealed I was excited but I seen The animations of his attacks looked wonky also his fighting stance was too much “up right” but despite all of that I still gave KI A chance. When season two was fully released my impression was that these characters look wonky the way that they fought looked wonky. Despite the fact that the characters look at wonky I still excepted the game because I still like the first season also I enjoy some of the second season characters like cinder and Shadow Jago. When the second season had its first patch notes they nerved a lot of the first season characters not because saber wolf was too fast not because Jago was Plus on most of his attacks and it was not because fulgore was OP. The reason that they Nerf the first season is because they had to sale the second season. The first season is better than the second season the first season characters are easier to pick up their all of their attacks have synergy their presentation is more appealing and they are more technical. The second season was The introduction to shenanigans. What shenanigans means in killer instinct is basically a “one trick pony” type of character where they only use one move. In killer instinct you will find people using one move to beat you one move that everything that they do hinges awful but when you use a character that only uses shenanigans and you fight someone who’s better than you and know in killer instinct you will find people using one move to beat you one move that everything that they do hinges offer but when you use a character that only uses shenanigans and you fight someone Who knows how to get past your shenanigans then what are you left with. Let me explain. Jago very very technical fighter versus shadow Jago shenanigan character. Now Jago is one of the most balanced characters in the game he has fireballs that are very useful across screen rush down kick And a DP. When it comes to fighting games would I expect there to be while I’m fighting is pressures in defense of tools basically a well offense and I well defense. Jago has both her that he has plus frame attacks he can either go over head to start a combo or go low to start a combo. But shadow Jago on the other hand is a shenanigan fighter. Shadow Jago has a teleport kick That will either hit you from behind or in front he can also make this move faster shutter Jago also has fast fireballs and he can shoot them multiple times plus shoot two at a time. Also he has a fast slide kick that hits low. Shadow Jago can manage to do a multi hitting uppercut that you can surge to hit twice. Now on paper it sounds like shadow Jago is a OP character. But in fact he’s just a shenanigan character there are ways to get out of shadow Jago‘s pressure there are ways to punish his shenanigans so what is he left with he has nothing concrete or solid enough that takes Priority when he fight but size the universal jump in heavy kick the only plus frames that he seems to do is +2 in that his crouching light punch what are you going to do with it he cannot keep his opponent pressured all you have to do Is crouching block and jump backwards and you may be able to get out of his pressure. But what if he Anti-Airs you or catches you in a jungle? The answer is nothing The only way he can convert that to max damage is to do obvious combo strings that are easy to break into even if you don’t break it he still doesn’t do a lot of damage. Shadow Jago tries to beat his opponents into breaking his combos that don’t do damage anyway he can’t manage to keep his opponents blocking and his defense is trash he’s fighting style has no synergy meaning that his specials does not perform well with other moves that he has. So what are you left to do. All you can do is try to overwhelm your opponent but The tools that you use our not safe So you’re left to chance. Let’s break down damage for second characters can perform hi damage combos while some perform low damage combos. I believe that his balance is necessary if One character has low combo opening percentage then he deserves a lot of damage and if a character has high combo opening percentage then he deserves low damage that’s how you balance the game but you will find characters, Especially the ones that Iron galaxy made to have high combo opening percentage with high damage which ultimately labels that character OP like for instants riptor rash and gargos. Now there are other characters that are this way but they are the best examples. They were made his way to sell the game it wasn’t made this way for the game to be balanced but to have broke OP characters to sell their seasons because to be honest I never cared for the third season or kind of the second season besides cinder And shadow Jago. But on this new phone journey of making the characters this way they also nerffed The first season so that it will force you to buy the other seasons you will notice how much of a big change from the first season to the third season of your characters history like saber wolf. Saber Wulf was a character who Had a fast movement and he would CrossView on wake up iron galaxy team this to be a problem in nerfed saber wolf not once not twice not even three times but four times they nerfed this character almost to the point where he’s not even playable for character who fights close range it’s funny that you slow him down killer instinct is known to have the biggest neutral positioning, meaning One character all the way to the left one character all the way to the right. So it leaves sable wolf to have a longer distance to travel to reach his opponent and they slowed him down also he has no defense of tools unless he has shadow or instinct and you can almost fully kill an opponent without him hitting you before he gets a shadow bar so that means that the only opportunity that saber wolf Has of getting out of your combo is to either break it , which flips the characters out to a 50-50 and puts space between them which does not help saber wolf because he has to close distance and every combo breaker creates distance Or to get his shadow to do shadow eclipse which is the only move that will stop them from pressuring him on but that also means that your health is almost gone.

But basically what I am trying to elaborate is I want to see double helix return to make this a better fighting game than iron galaxy because I am galaxy ruined killer instinct I can go on all day about how they Ron killer instinct like I wanted to see more character customizations more alternate outfits but we didn’t get any of this also the characters have shenanigans which doubles the game but we should’ve expected this since they made dive kick. Also they will claim the first season to be flawed then strip them of what makes the character them then give it to the next season while at the same time making that next season better than the previous season to force you to buy the DLC which ultimately makes the game unbalanced which leads us to work I am talking about now. Bbasically

Wow. There’s so much just wrong here that I don’t know where to start. So I won’t.

Your wall of text (try using paragraphs next time) is filled with completely speculative and frankly, unlikely, assumptions as well as some things that have been actively disproven many times over. Also, just one more time since there seems to be a persistent segment of the community that somehow fails to understand this:

THERE IS NO DOUBLE HELIX ANYMORE. THEY CANNOT “COME BACK” AND WORK ON A NEW KI.

No one loved what DH did with season 1 more than me. But I’m sick and tired of these rose colored glasses and wishful thinking powered “analyses” of the game.

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This isnt Iron Galaxys fault… DH made the game where it didnt have color customization options and other options. IG only worked with what was handed over to them and they worked within someone elses base game. Also MS is who is in control of skins and customization…not IG

I didnt read all of your essay but from what I skimmed you are way off on alot of things…most of it is just your opinoin and not based off fact. And a ton of typos, miss spelled words and bad grammar…no offense but you may want to spell check the entire essay again. Computers can fix all that you know.

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LMAO! I dont know? The jungle is already tough on its own so running into Shadow Jago in the jungle is double trouble!

Ok, first time reading this…just ouch. Just a piece of advice, please use paragraphs. It’s easier on the eyes.

Would you care explaining what made the game more “technical”? These “all out risks” I guess are still there with unsafe mixups. Also…frame advantage still exists. It’s still used very much and is almost essential to some characters.

Aren’t one trick ponies supposed to be easier to use? You say the 1st season chars. are easier but also more technical which I don’t think corresponds with your point of one trick ponies.

I didn’t play season 1, but I’ve seen a lot of it but correct if I’m wrong but didn’t S1 had shenanigins as well? Like Jago’s crazy manuals, his crazy regen, Sadiras Spin to Win combo, and there are probably more. Sure maybe season 2 had more obvious “shenanigans” but I don’t think they introduced them.

Ok…this was kinda hard to read. But I’ll try to respond to it. I can’t think of characters that have 1 move alone that can beat every single other option in the game. I’ll tak your example of shadow Jago. A lot of his special moves are punishable. A Shago that relies fully on his special mixups will get destroyed by a mid tier player who knows how to block. It’s not like it unbeatable.

On the other hand, there are Shagos that play good neutral since he has good buttons. His mixups are not is only tool (he even has sub par zoning)

What’s this synergy stuff? His fireball juggle works great with shadow divekick so I guess that synergy? Low M into H overhead? They work well. Even Fwd HK cancels into a dash for a mixup which by your definition would have synergy.

Are suggesting that there are OP characters in the roster? I kinda think you’re wrong here. Everyone has a weakness and a way to beat offense (like idk maybe a universal option to counter frame trapping and obvious offense)

Idk. I love the game at it is, but I don’t think you have a good idea of how the game works at the moment. Just what I think.

One thing I want to change however is the addition of more instincts, alternate costumes, and ultimates. Probably more stuff but my head hurts too much to be thinking about that rn.

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Let’s begin with a headline.

Not happening. Double Helix is now a part of Amazon. Furthermore, the majority of Double Helix who worked on KI stayed and continued to work on KI.

More technical? Really? People have some huge nostalgia goggles on for Season 1. The same game where Combo Breakers leave the person who broke at a huge advantage with a hard knockdown? Really? “the vision that they wanted to” How do you know that that vision was? What if the vision they had was the same one Iron Galaxy had?

A new developer got hold of an engine that they had 0 experience with. It was natural the first few characters were like that. It did get better though starting with Kan-Ra. It was a bit wonky but got better over time. Only Maya and TJ look wonky.

Huh? They nerfed some of Jago’s stuff because Iron Galaxy felt that was the best for balance. Not because of some conspiracy theory where they nerfed it to sell a new season. They didn’t even nerf Fulgore. They reworked him.

Introduction to shenanigans? One trick pony where they use only one move? What? This isn’t even remotely true. I would argue that Season 1 characters were even more shenanigan based. Sabrewulf dash dp ring a bell? Sadira’s loops?

But didn’t you say that

What you described as Shadow Jago is clearly not one move.

That is not how balance works. There are a lot more factors than that. There’s neutral game. There’s range. Etc. Not just “Can I start a combo”.

Do you have any proof on this or is this just some bs conspiracy theory?

huh? What is cross view? When does neutral equal one character to left and right?

He always only had one wake up which requires one meter. What are you even talking about. He was designed that way to compensate for his insane offense. Also when is breaking a 50/50. What do you even mean by “your health is almost gone”?

It will never happen.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHA

Ha ha ha ha!!! Shadow Jago is on the loose everyone…watch out!!! The shenanigans are gonna bring you to your…shana nana-nana-nana KNEES …KNEES and gonna make you bleed! LOLOL!

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I read your post @lnbasic

The clip below is Killer Instinct (S1) Grand Finals from Evolution 2014 which saw CDJR (Sadira) go against Rico Suave (Jago/Sabrewulf) which we could very easily call top level play of the time, agreed?

Now, to your credit, yes, you make note in your argument that DH didn’t have much of a chance to implement the vision they had for KI and that’s very fair and true. But given what we had to work with back then, again, the video above is high level and technical play of its time. It’s what KI’s best players on the biggest stage found to be the best way to win.

And it’s full of one chance combos into unbreakable juggles…stringing openers for unbreakable damage…hard knockdown combo breakers that led to full on setplay…intentionally glitching combo enders for more favorable position…etc.

In other words, like in most high level gaming, high level players focus on the ways to generate maximum damage and stiffing pressure for minimal risk and abusing whatever broken tech is out there in the process. S1 was hype. Yes, i will never not say that; i’d be a idiot to say that. But to say that S1 was perfect is a opinion no one really has to agree with. I don’t agree that it was perfect at all. It was cool. But it needed work. DH brought us a cool game, but it needed work.

Would they have created a great game had they stayed on? No one will ever know. There are too many other things we all can do to have fun and enjoy gaming than to wish for what could have been. That kinda bring me back full circle to the original question, what would i like to see changed in a new KI from the current one. I honestly dunno. About the only thing i can say i’d like to see is more innovation.

I read your entire post @lnbasic. I suggest using commas and paragraphs to improve readability - it’s pretty easy to get lost in a wall of text.

In terms of your issues with KI seasons 2 and 3, I’ll refrain from trying to rebut point by point, and instead simply try to correct a few things that are substantively wrong. There’s a valid discussion to be had regarding seasonal balance, but I think it’s important that the discussion happens around things that are true. To whit:

  • Saberwulf, Jago, Sadira, and Fulgore remained top tier characters for much of the life of KI Season 2, and Jago and Fulgore both remained Top 5 characters well into S3.
  • In terms of forward movement, Saberwulf is actually much faster now than in his S1 incarnation. He had buffs to run speed and was given his leaping claw attack.
  • Riptor has never been top-tier outside of her infinite block string glitches (patched out within a month I believe).
  • High-level Shago involves a mix of solid play (Shago has great buttons, fantastic walkspeed, and potent zoning) and shenanigans. Gimmicky play is possible, but hardly the only thing available to the character.
  • S1 had an incredible number of shenanigans. Spinal and Glacius had unblockable setups, Sadira had unbreakables, Jago was functionally unbreakable, and Wulf’s backdash was very nearly a teleport (meaty heavy demon blade from Sadira legit couldn’t catch a Wulf mashing backdash). Wulf also had almost no pushback on certain normals, meaning he could frame trap low for however long he felt like before tossing in an unreactable overhead.

There is more, but that’s what came to mind as I rode the bus back from lunch. S1 wasn’t as honest as you remember, and seasons 2 and 3 aren’t as gimmicky as you seem to feel. There’s a discussion to be had on the relative merits of each season’s balancing philosophy, but the premise should rest on ground that accurately describes what each season contained.

I do think the actual topic statement is an interesting one though. For myself, I’d like a hypothetical new game to pull back a bit from characters who don’t need to play the combo game. I think it worked later in the game because the cast was so large, but once we shrink it back down again I’d like the focus to go back to that two way interaction. Characters ignoring (Gargos) or cheating (Eagle) their way out of the combo system is a good recipe for frustration I think. Disgusting setplay and vortexes have their place, but overall I think it’s nice when such options aren’t overly prevalent or strong.

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Pro players speak fondly about S1 because game was so busted it was easy to exploit and get ez tournament money.

Non pro S1 players are echoing their opinion thinking it was actually better game back then.

lmao.

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Yeah… Y1 was amazing, if you played as Sadira, Jago, or Wulf. I remember once CDjr starting using Sadira’s one chance break high damage combo, a collective sigh reverberated throughout the entire building.

S1 was fun, but I agree with @VerminatorX most of the people complaining about the changes in S2 and S3 was because they could exploit broken tech to win.

I love Sadira, but I’d much rather use her the way she is today, than abuse broken S1 tech to win.

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Its amazing the misconception people have sbout DH and IG, Killer instinct problems are not from its developers, KI problems are only from the fact that KI is exclusive, if KI comes to PS4 or Switch today, we will be right back as the best fighter in the world, KI will always be low as much as we are excusive to xbox only

who makes a fighting game that has been absent for 19 years an exclusive in 2018?

regarding the new KI, I wll advise that we stck to KI roots, make it a 3D game like tekken, KI started as 2.5D , we need that again, we don’t need to copy 2D, Ki was a 2D on a 2.5D rotting plane, we need a 3D KI, 3D games are very good nowadays if done right. Personally I need KI VR, that’s the only wish I had, apparently Microsoft has not even announced KI on xbox talkless of KI VR

In truth, I prefer 2D with 3D elements, kind of like how KI is right now. Then again, I’d just love to see a new KI. :smiley:

sooo, which one?

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I agree. Especially cuz many gamers, including fgc’ers still only buy one console system and this gen, street fighter (the fgc’s legacy OG OOOG, can-do-whatever-and-peeps-will-still-play-it-cuz-of-capcom-money) went exclusive to ps4.

Literally jus the other day, two things happened:

  1. someone didnt know that a new KI was out (smh on that alone - itd be great if something was gonna get exclusive treatment that it can be pushed/marketed with pride instead of an indie game)
  2. He only had a ps4, no xbox

Some balance adjustments considering characters archetypes
egs:

  • It’s ridiculous how a Hisako with instinct can kill you with one reset even when they are15% life left. It’s like once they knock you down it’s over. If she is going to be such a guessing game in your wake up the minimal adjustment would be damage. She also gets a lot of high damage in one reset.

  • Other characters (feel free to make your own complain).

Resets

They are way too strong in a game where blocking is hard enough (maybe that is why lots of players just don’t like blocking and throw at you like nuts?). Playing the reset game seems better than playing the combo game. Mashing throw may stop the reset game tho (unless you are against a grappler). Is it ok being so plus after a combo drop??

Breaking

Input breaking?. Or make juggles easier to break depending on the character. Specially for characters that have recaptures and will take huge damage for little work.
KI2 had a lot of guessbreaking as well but not penalty. I think the idea of lockouts it’s cool. The counterbreaker tho still feels wrong agaisnt guessbreakers. It certainly works better with players that are playing the reactive breaking game, but it fails huge time against guessbreaking. Input guessbreaking is a little harder and you have to pay more attention to what you are going to break. Sorry I don’t have a better suggestion for this matter. But it feels awful when a person just breaks 4 times in a row and don’t get a penalty for one frame or whatever. Might it be lag? Don’t know, but it’s extremelly annoying they getting away for a hair of a frog. I can’t put in their heads “hey, stop guessbreaking or I’ll eat your lifebar alive”. It just doesn’t work against them like 50% or more of the times (mostly online).

Coherence

More coherence in character figthing mechanics: eg- Aria is Marvel, Eagle looks Injustice , Sabrewulf/Orchid are SF, etc. In short, there are characters that are more KI than others (TJ combo, like it or not, it could be considered quite a KI character, not the best example but there he is). Honestly I prefer a less shenaningan playstile. Shenaningans and nutyness shouldn’t beat solid playstyle IMO.
All share the combo mechanics but some would get more benefits from it also. It’s weird-
I understand this is hard TO DO, but too many different characters can be good for variety but also feel a bit strange for a game . I ignore all who said “new KI is a d*mn MUGEN” but sometimes it does feel like I’m not playing the same game.

Playing 100 miles away

It’s not exactly the game’s fault

…But it kinda is :confused:
KI always had this “I’ll ran to the other extreme of the screen and do dumb things to just get away with no big damage punishments even I’m doing lots of risky stuff”. But in old KIs it wasn’t a really great idea, you could punish people for playing that lame. Here is harder. And also, it’s really not fun to play or to watch.

If you don’t believe me play a character that has to work every single time to get in just to get inmediately guessbroken and start all over again (I’m not even talking about character who make huge damage). I’ll lose just of boredom. There’s a lot of abuse from lots of players making this a negative way to enjoy playing KI.

Flip outs

I don’t mind staggers much. But flip outs can’t be for all . They aren’t still a huge/main issue tbh, but why grapplers have flip outs?? They can reset you for big damage just with the tools they have. I’m not digging that decision.


Now considering what the OP posted

About S1 and S2

The game has become better in many things considering how hard is to balance a fighting game. You can play the character you like most of the time, but you may have to work harder than others depending on the MU.
There are very good players and good level stading for most of the cast. But there are also many players whose gamestyle just feels awful and they are also awful to fight. But that’s the way they play, not the game alone (have you ever played against Athena in KoF 2002? teleport, fireballs , nice damage and inv DP? she was a horrible character to play against when they were lame).

About Shago, it’s very hard to know where he is coming from his teleport. It does feel random, because it’s not always the same direction or height depending on his execution (I think Demitri in Darkstalkers respect a distance to do his teleport). And I’m not talking about the way he crosses you up, not complaining about that.
And while he is annoying once you block him you can punish him pretty well, while other characters who do crazy stuff are usually safe on block he is not.
Many say “he has no damage”. I don’t agree, Gargos and Eyedol (except from instinct) makes little damage. Shago is decent and can kill you with his randomess and few some mistakes on your end.

Ok, I’m done with complains (for now) And still doesn’t mean I hate the game

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As far as what I’d like to see them change for a new KI:

-I’d like more of a cohesive story mode. Now, I don’t mind it being told in multiple locations, but I’d like to have all content available in a single hub. They started that with Shadow Lords, but they didn’t really have the option to do this with ALL story content given the seasonal approach, but I think that having a “living mode” like Shadow Lords could help that in a huge way in the next game, especially from an overall structural standpoint.

-Arcade mode. I’d love see various ladders for KI 1, KI2, KI 2013, Ultratech, etc. I also think it’d be cool if there was a story ladder that was tailored specifically to each character and playing that ladder would give you background information that tied in to the main story. The ladder could be a sort of precursor or prologue to the story, and once complete, that sort of prologue chapter could be accessed in the location where the rest of the story content is kept.

-More clothing options for characters. I’m not big in to Street Fighter V’s character designs, but one thing they do have that’s pretty awesome is all those clothing options. I’d love to see KI get that many options for characters, all with multiple colors, as opposed to the current accessories system. Don’t get me wrong, I like accessories, but a lot of times, many items only look good with one color or things look mismatched. Maybe we could earn parts of an outfit and then once the full outfit is available, all of the colors for it unlock?

-More vibrant shadow moves. I hate to harp on an old issue, but the purple shadows don’t seem nearly as detailed as the old shadows that actually showed parts of the character repeating. To me, that looked more compelling.

-Improved stage ender animations. Not really the biggest deal, but some of them look kinda goofy, so it’d be cool if stage enders looked a bit more realistic. Not gruesome, mind you. Just a bit darker in look and less on the near humorous side.

-Pre-Match “Fight On” screen. I know KI’s characters have their own intros, and those are all great. But I still miss the pre-match “Fight On” screen from the first KI that showed the two characters, framed side by side, with a cool, dark animation. Something like that would look nice as a little bit of window dressing.

-A bit more style and flash in the menus and fonts. I love the character intro moves for some of the characters on the season 3 select screen, but a few of them take to long, there’s mist everywhere, too much green and purple, etc. It’d be awesome if the menus and fonts had a bit more of a streamlined, yet darker feel to them. I know that’s vague, so let me try and clarify: A more Blade Runner feel, with dark colors, rain, neon, metal, rust, etc. KI always had that vibe to me, and I think that’d be a cool way to go again, especially given the setting.

-Consistency. Things like only some characters having ultimates, some characters having better looking classic outfits and gear than others, some not having as many colors as others… Stuff like that. I know certain aspects are highly subjective, but a more uniform approach to most aspects of the game would be great.


Honestly, that’s really all I can think of at the moment. I don’t believe that there’s anything fundamentally wrong with this game that a more cohesive, consistent sequel couldn’t fix. I absolutely love the character designs, the stage designs, the particle effects, the amazing music, the use of multiple announcer voices, the story that we’re given, the fun and unique Shadows and Shadow Lords modes, the top shelf netcode… There are so many boxes this game checks off in terms of overall fun that I see a brilliant foundation for what could be a phenomenal, high tier caliber sequel.

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Want to rest my eyes a bit before I make a formal response to the OP, but I wanted a divert a bit and look into what you mean about this post? I’d like to understand what you mean exactly of characters ignoring or cheating the combo system.

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Gargos can literally kill you without ever engaging with the combo system, because he has multiple stagger options into command grabs (from which he gets solid setups) and multiple zoning options that simply lead to knockdowns. A Gargos player doesn’t have to engage in a two-way interaction unless he feels like it, and much of the time people don’t feel like it, because Gargos’ options when playing outside it are still quite good and difficult to deal with.

Eagle tends to “cheat” the combo system because most of his touches involve projectiles raining from the sky->random button at odd time->knockdown->hold this overhead projectile setup again. The character is functionally unbreakable in this scenario, and the bloody thing feeds back into itself. It’s a layered, reversal-safe mixup, and even if you could block it (which you probably can’t), Eagle’s throw range is good, does high potential damage, and also feeds right back into the setup. And trying to throw tech will often get you locked out, because you wind up doing it after a projectile touches you and you’re technically trying to break at an inappropriate time. Having to guess on manuals is always rough, but because of how active the projectiles are the timing is extra tough, and if you lock out Eagle has time to confirm into a real combo, which is pretty atypical of one-chancers in KI.

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