Variations, Clones, Duplicates - Discuss!

Off-Topic
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Continuing the discussion from Retro Alts not exact copies of original costumes:

@VergoVan @anon39655210

I think the original thread is starting to wind off topic, so I’d love to continue the discussion here with you guys and anyone else who wants to join us.

I also don’t like to see duplicate characters or clones; I think it becomes too cluttered. I’ve got a lot of problems with the SF series because of that, although SFV seems to be taking that back a bit. I also had some problems with the Soul Calibur series for the same reason.

Shadow Jago is OK, in my opinion, because there’s plenty of story to support his existence, and he has a drastically different moveset. So he looks similar, but he’s very much his own character. I don’t think there’s any real story stuff going on to support a Shadow Orchid, or even really a Shadow Maya (as some had suggested in the past), and so I don’t want to see those become a character - unless they have DRASTICALLY different gameplay and the story supports it; maybe there is a female Shadow Lord who will link with one of the female characters, someone who is an opponent of Gargos maybe?

She could even be a positive influence, the balance which is intended to keep Gargos and his minions in check.

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Hah, I just said in the other thread that we were going off-topic, so cool that we can continue the discussion here.

Personally… I utterly hate stuff like this.
I just want each slot on the character select screen to be an original character who is different from the rest, both in looks and gameplay. I don’t want multiple versions of the same character, I don’t want characters to look or play like eachother, I don’t want the same character to have several variations…

Mostly because, I think it is a waste of space and it is uncreative to have more characters that looks or plays alike, copying models and just adding a little twist.

Some of the worst offenders are:

  • The shoto-clones in Street Fighter, like Ryu, Ken, Sakura, Akuma, Dan, Sean etc…
  • The palette swap ninjas in Mortal Kombat, like Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Reptile, Ermac etc…
  • The altered versions of original characters, like Evil Ryu, Shadow Jago, Order Sol, Orochi Iori etc…
  • The Tekken clones, like Heihachi and Kazuya, Nina and Anna, Marshal and Forest Law, Jack and P. Jack etc…

Fortunately, most of these characters have evolved into unique characters with their own design and moveset through their respective franchises, and that’s good, imo! If I play as Anna, I don’t want her too feel like Nina at all. If I play as Ken, I don’t want him to feel like Ryu one bit! If I play as Sub-Zero, I don’t want him to look like a blue Scorpion!

In the past, these things were forgivable, because the developers wanted more characters, but had problems with cartridge memory, short time to create the characters, stuff like that. But today, such things just won’t cut it.

Edit:
I forgot to mention why I don’t like Variations, such as MKX’s Variation system.
Mostly because for some character, 3 Variations just seems like too much, and then it’s like the devs didn’t know what to do with a certain character’s variation and then just stuffs something in there.

For example… Scorpion’s Inferno variation where he summons demonic minions… it is pretty much just like Noob Saibot’s shadows. And Kitana’s Mournful variation, where they just gave her some of Jade’s key special moves. I would MUCH rather just have Jade then (especially since Jade is my fave MK character of all time)! It’s almost on the border of being offensive seeing some of these variations just having other characters’ moves thrown in there, because the devs didn’t know what else to do with them.

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Ugh… Not quite what I was talking about, I was saying that two characters can be “one” person and still play and look differently. For example: Sub Zero(original) and Noob Saibot are both the same person (Bi-Han)

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True, but Sub-Zero is now Kuai Liang, and Bi-Han’s Sub-Zero was just an alt-costume in MK9.
I wouldn’t like it if Bi-Han’s Sub-Zero was an all-together different character that took up an unnecessary roster spot, and then Kuai Liang’s Sub-Zero was another character also on the roster.

They already kinda did that with Cyber Sub-Zero! Though I liked playing as Cyber Sub-Zero more, then I’d rather NRS had just made it a new skin, like they did with Human/Cyber Sektor and Cyrax. If they had made Cyber Cyrax fill up one spot and Human Cyrax fill up another spot, that would poke me the wrong way.

And if they then also added Frost to the roster… I would just hate that so much!

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It’s possible to have one person have two drastically different movesets, nothing is stopping it from being a possibility. Alt.Orchid can be a character and not just a clone.

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My point was I don’t want to see a Shadow Orchid just because a Shadow Jago exists. For me it would need a different look, different move set, different stance if possible, and also some canonical story reason why she exists.

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I don’t want “Shorchid” but I do want a sneaky, stealthy, night prowling, panther style Orchid decked out in black with her tonfas. Lore wise I’m pretty sure its not farfetched for her to do so.

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Dunno bout shorchid, but I suppose being jagos sister she could be as corruptible. The firecat could be another way in.
Tho I’d like to see a character using her tonfa. She could have her lasaken and other helicopter kick.

Tonfa would be an awesome weapon for the game.

Clones and duplicates I’m not really into Ala street fighter

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It would still be Orchid. And that’s what I don’t like.

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Well sir you don’t have to.
Shiek maybe Zelda, but Zelda isn’t Shiek.

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… That made no sense at all. Also, *Sheik.

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Yes it does. Their both same person but they play and look differently.

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I would like to see Kim Wu get corrupted. Since both Jago and Kim both have animal spirits they are the most dangerous to Gargos, so odds are he would try to take Kim out early like he did with Jago.

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That’s not what you said though. XD
In lore, they are still the same person though. They might look differently and play differently from eachother, but it’s still Zelda. Just like Shadow Jago is still Jago and Evil Ryu is still Ryu etc.

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Maybe we should give joanna dark orchids tonfa and other moves. But in a skin tight catsuit, badass boots and long slicked back dark hair.

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Yes lore wise they are the same person but, on the roster however they couldn’t be more apart. Heck even back when they were bound together with :point_down:B, one is drastically preferred over the other.

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It’s still enough for me not wanting such.

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At this point, I think you guys are pretty much at an “agree to disagree” understanding, I hope. I think you’ve both made valid points, and personally I find myself somewhere in between both viewpoints.

@anon39655210 regarding Frost, I really wish they had brought her back for MKX. I used to main her in one of the older, handheld MKs.

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If she came back instead of Sub-Zero… I still wouldn’t want that, because I never liked her. XD
Her entire concept was nothing more than “female Sub-Zero”. They would have to change ALOT about her before I would like her, and then most fans would probably just have a new original character instead anyways.

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There’s an incredibly obvious route the story could take to support this: Omen possesses Orchid or Maya. It was even hinted at in Omen’s backstory.

Oh, are you uncomfortable with the idea of Omen, a character who has basically zero reason to assume a gender (despite defaulting to male pronouns) but who you’ve decided is male, possessing a female character? What kind of transphobic reasoning is that? Who even thinks of gender when reasoning about fictional supernatural possession?