Ultimates would bring in fresh HYPE-factor and more casuals

I was not aware that old school Ultimates could be performed from neutral. I didn’t play the old games, and suffice it to say from what I have seen and read of them, I don’t hold them in high regard. That’s pretty irrelevant here, though, and doesn’t really affect my view on Ultras and possibility of Ultimate implementation.

Considering the current game, specifically in regard to damage scaling and the emphasis on the cashout mechanics, to allow an unbreakable cashout for “the rest of their life” from about 15%, provided one can succeed in neutral (by accessing the combo system within which one performs an Ultra) or succeed in the combo system itself (by comboing into the Danger state without being broken) is what makes the Ultra an interesting game mechanic. By allowing it to achieve it’s own success (for instance, a frame trap into Ultimate or wake-up Ultimate), I feel like we would be losing a large part of what makes so many close matches intense, or “hype” - we (the players and the audiences) become more focused on nuance, and keep our heads in the game, looking for a neutral success versus a window to slip a super into. Perhaps the distinction is minor to some, but I think it’s actually quite a large difference.

To make another SF comparison - can anyone truly argue that they WANT “wake-up super” in KI? I’m pretty sure we are all familiar with the stigma, and the current design of KI’s analog keeps it wholly out of our lexicon. I think that’s a good thing. :smiley:

I also don’t think essentially giving every character without a battery ender a once-per-match battery ender would make for a significantly more interesting experience. We would just see them opt for “mini-Ultra” at the end of every round the option presented itself, instead of them deciding whether or not to continue a certain combo/juggle path, and how far, relative to the per-hit meter they could build versus the rate at which continuing the combo would provide the opponent instinct (unless, of course, the opponent has full INSX). I think the current system is indeed overall more interesting than the suggested alternative.

I’m not actually clear about HOW Brutalities work, and I’ll be honest - I forgot they existed. I don’t play MKX. Though, I agree with your analogy. Ultimates should be much more like KI’s answer to Brutalities than Fatalities. Brevity!

And, for the SFV stage transition example, forgive me here, I quit playing that very update - can you actually choose NOT TO affect a stages parameters? I thought it just sorta happened, I have no idea how it actually works. That said though, the only thing that changes is the stages corner parameters. The following round, both players start center stage with unaffected meter and equidistant from the corners. Way I see it, no, that does not make for a significantly more interesting game than otherwise. It’s just a silly animation, and maybe a farther march to the corner depending on how the round works out.

And, @FengShuiEnergy - while I am definitely one of those folks who would only ever pick the training stage (presently I only ever pick Devil’s Landing, cuz bad eyes and fossil rig)… it’s really not the same thing. That’s an apples-to-pterodactyls comparison.

We’re confusing Ultimates with No Mercies here. Two completely different things.

I’m down for ultimates as long as they are not gory or really graphic looking, that stuff just doesn’t need to be in KI. If they have a no mercy where a character gets smashed, their corpse should be turned into a pancake, looney toons style lol.

If you are going to make an argument, at least make it in a coherent way.

Shago’s Ultimate is like 10 seconds long from start to victory screen:

…where as a Stage Ultra, lets take the Pinnacle Stage, is like 16 seconds long from start to victory screen:

By comparison, most normal full Ultras take only about 10 seconds as well.

I will agree with you that double and triple Ultras can be/are a waste of time in some instances, but by your own admission, a single Ultra or Stage Ultra is “a quick and competitively-viable way to end the game promptly.”

So what is your argument again? How does a 10 second long Ultimate add up to be a “time waster,” while a 10 second long Ultra or Stage Ultra animation does not add up to be a time waster?

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Ah, my mistake. The Ultimate is objectively faster than a Stage Ultra. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I guess I’ll restrict my argument to: Ultimates are a waste of development time and resources when considering the alternatives of extra stages or characters.

Edit: Just to add, I’m a player who typically ends his Ultras immediately for the sake of moving things along. So for me, even Ultimates are a moment for me to turn my ahead away from the screen and wait. In this sense, Ultimates are a bit of a time waster - hence my comments before.

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I’m not just making up mechanics on a whim, advocating for “new things” for the sake of new things. Yes, Ultimates in KI2 could be done in neutral, and by that regard they are/were like uber slow Supers, or X-rays, that kill. The reason people advocate for them is because they are a part of the original KI2 design…on top of being frickin’ cool…but that is subjective.

You are making a nonsensical argument here.

End game neutral is always a tense situation, and adding in Ultimates would only heighten that tension, not depress it. But besides that, in the game already you can “bypass” that “15% cashout” at the end of the second round with moves like Fulgore’s Devastation beam, or Thunder’s zero frame grab, or Gargos’ shadow izuna drop, or just a big combo with a ton of PD being cashed out for 40 or 50 plus percent.

Seriously, it is like you are just trying to invent reasons for not wanting them for fun or something.

That isn’t an apt comparison.

Ultimates in KI2 were NEVER zero frame, or 3 frame moves. Ultimates had something like 20 frames of start up, and they were COMPLETELY punishable having like 30 frames of recovery. I certainly am not arguing for that to change, and I don’t think anyone else is either. Having Ultimates be completely stuff-able, making them slow kill moves is nothing like you are trying to make them out to be…but yeah, you didn’t play the old games so you don’t have that frame of reference.

What is happening?

Most players (at least in tournament) pay attention to their opponents Instinct meter, and doing an excessive combo at the end of a round into an ender just amounts to giving their opponent A TON of instinct at the end of said combo. Many players opt to NOT to enders at all in certain situations as to not give their opponent any instinct…but let’s get more specific…

  1. Spinal doesn’t have a battery ender. If you are playing as Spinal, and at the end of the first round you have no skulls and no meter, what would you do at the end of the round? Would you go for a battery ender mini-Ultra, or would you go for skulls?

  2. Say you are playing as Aganos…who already has a battery ender. What if at the end of the round have no chunks but have full meter, do you go for a Mini-Ultra? Or do you dump your meter to get to the level-4 ender and full your chunks.

See, you are making up nonsensical positions for a nonsensical argument. The inclusion of Mini-Ultras wouldn’t take away options, they just add new ones or keep things the same.

Certain moves cause the transition, while others don’t. And yes, more real-estate in an FG can make a huge difference in certain matchups. If F.A.N.G. or Dahlsim can run away longer from their opponent, that can impact the match to a great degree. More neutral space forces more neutral game.

The last ultimate showcase was beautiful.
They included intros taunts and the ultras.

I hope they updated one with season 3 !

The stages looked so deep and mysterious then.

To this day orchid still makes my insides tingle

It’s very smart from a marketing perspective. Everyone went nuts over MKX’s fatalities because it’s a staple of the series that longtime fans have loved from the get go. It also brings in new faces that can make MKX the talk of the town (or in this case: the internet) with positive or negative reception. It brings attention to the game. Everyone starts out as a casual player. How they get hooked is up to how the game presents itself.

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^ Word

Adding ultimates is for marketing purposes primarily… Secondarily, being able to do them in neutral when the opponent is in danger state (No Mercy right?) would definitely add some more spice! As long as they have sensible (long) startup + recovery, and no invincibility cuz that would just make them annoying and we don’t want that. But you should be able choose between Ultra and Ultimate off a combo opener too.

Ultimately (ror) if players would go for them in tournaments or not isn’t all that important. What I think is the most valuable is the youtubes and the trailers. Catching people’s attention, creating those oooooh’s and aaaaah’s… Igniting that fire to feel cool, while reviving the old-school guys’ love for the old KI games. That’s what’s needed!

More stages and characters would definitely be fun but that is not a good way to bring in new players, furthermore it will make it an even harder game to get into.

Ultimates @developers go go go!

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This gave me a new idea for KI3. How about if they add a feature in which when a character’s second life bar is completely drained, instead of the match ending, the loser could enter a dizzy state (like in the original) with the stage flashing red and giving the winner the opportunity to perform a no mercy? I think it would be really cool and besides, @Ravan86 has brought up some good finisher ideas.

Edit: And come to think of it, more finishing moves would be a good strategy when it comes to marketing for KI.

I.E.

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i prefear no mercy, not ultimate. Ultimate is just another combination like ultra …
instead no mercy introduces a classical mechanics. Where you have little time to enter the right combination or the opponent might awaken. This introduces tension and adrenaline. It is funny.

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Oh yeah! They can also bring back that thing where if you tap the buttons fast enough, you’ll revive with 5-10 percent health and a damage boost.

For example: you lose and your character is in a dizzy state and the opponent decides to taunt or tbag, you can resurrect and win the match.

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I’m sorry, but to me, the idea of an opponent coming back to life like the classic games was frankly super annoying and discouraged the use of finishers in general.

Sure, I guess it was kind of funny, but that joke got really stale, really fast. And it wouldn’t really add the right kind of excitement to the game.

My salt meter is ticking like crazy for some reason.

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But it would only happen if you didn’t finish the match with an ultra.

But it’s exciting though. O_o

-.- people just want to see beautiful animations, have no interest in the gameplay.

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This makes me sad. Shago ultimate is almost useless, it does not add any variety to the gameplay.

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So, you’re saying ultimates are better for this then? Because, you know, they don’t affect gameplay.

But they do bring in an audience like fatalities do for mortal kombat.

nooo, I meant exactly the opposite. I sarcasm.

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