I don’t want to derail the topic for this, but…
Why?
Because having 6 autodoubles is something that basically only adds a ton of time and frustration in learning the game. Not sure how to explain it further, but I think it’s a waste. It adds a bit of flair (not really depth), but it doesn’t really do much else than making it more of an uphill battle than it should be for the newer players.
coughUltimatescough
Sorry, I’ll be serious.
I’d argue that having a stronger variety in combos and being somewhat harder to break is something that could be considered a strength for some characters. The reason why some characters have only 3 is because of specific reasons to that character that goes against them having the privilege of being tough to break.
We could get into a long discussion about how hard the game is to learn for new players, but I don’t want to derail the topic.
Fair point.
If new content is what your after, I think shadow lords is a breath of fresh air.
There really isn’t any question that these would add hype. If anyone watched SCR 2016 this past weekend, and saw the MKXL top 8, you know what I’m talking about.
The only question is that if they were in, would people use them? I for one am all for the KI2 treatment for KI.
- Add mini Ultras to close out the first rounds.
- Add Ultimate combos
- Add Ultimates that are able to be done in neutral, but only in danger
IMO, having Ultimates only able to be done when your life bar is still in the green is kind of lame at the end of the day. For sure if feels good to land one to close out you Supreme Victory, but at the same time it severely limits how often you see them.
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I think that’s the point of them. See them too much you probably won’t see them as much since you can just do it on a whim without filling a requirement.
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I used to argue against Ultimates, but at this point in the games life, and it’s direction, I don’t think Ultimates would be bad (if there’s going to be a S4). It is safe to assume that MK’s casual playerbase (which is the driving factor in it’s sales) is there for Fatalities. They don’t add anything to the gameplay, but they make people go “ooooohhhh” and “aaaaahhhhh” and “whooooaaaa” which are three distinctly powerful marketing tools. Shago doesn’t have to be representative of their possibility - the animators could exercise a bit of brevity, and voila! Shago’s becomes the obnoxiously long example! Hell, just some camera work with their current Ultra Ender’s could be enough glitter to entice a couple of "ooooohhhh"s.
I think people just like close-ups of their character. It makes them feel cool. People like feeling cool. And if it isn’t eating into budgeted funding or time allotted to other stuff… I don’t see the issue. I don’t think they would really have any bearing on tourneys, at least no more than Ultras do currently.
@UncappedWheel82 I don’t disagree with most of your points, but forget the “from neutral” part. If you can trigger Ult. from neutral, then ‘Danger’ is no longer ‘Danger’ but dead, and we’re effectively reducing every characters total health pool by 15%. The current rules for Ult. activation should absolutely remain.
I also like the Supreme requirement. If you can activate Ultimate during your second bar, then you are effectively removing Ultra Combo’s in place of their cinematic counterparts. Pass on that too.
If we were to have “mini-Ultra’s” for closing out the first round, what of the strategic element of “death-mid-combo”? That’s one of the most interesting elements of KI round design, and I would hate to see the game losing valuable gameplay elements in place of "ooooohhhh"s and "aaaaaahhhhh"s.
So, I guess I agree with “SCR Fatality Hype” and “Add Ultimates”. The other stuff, no offense, would just make for a less interesting game overall.
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I disagree. It is all in how you implement them. Think of Omen’s DD, or Shago’s RD type move. Give the move a TON of start up and recovery, make them jumpable, or blockable, or interruptible, or just straight up counter-able, and they won’t be that scary.
Boss Gargos in SLs has an “Ultimate”-style move similar to Shago, in that is unblockable, and does a ton of damage. Something like that would be great.
I could take or leave the supreme requirement really, but I really disagree with Ultimates in the second round “effectively removing” Ultras though. All it would do is add variety. Having the ability to either do an Ultra, or an Ultimate, or a stage Ultra, doesn’t discourage one over the other, rather it encourages choice.
In KI2, mini ultras were like battery enders, they were the only battery enders…other than Ultra’s themselves. Mini Ultras could do something similar in KI today. Make them give Shadow meter, or instinct. IDK, I’m just throwing those out there, but they don’t have to be purely cosmetic…not that that would be a bad thing either.
I really just don’t get that logic. How could adding variety make things less interesting? That is like saying that because Capcom added more stage transitions, that now SFV is less interesting because of them.
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The function of an Ultra is to instantly and unavoidably cashout any remaining life to finish the match, provided the player can access the combo system first. By making the Ultimate avoidable, it is sort of defeating it’s mechanical function. They are no longer Ultimates, but something more analogous to a “Super” and would impact the significance of characters that already have such moves. What of DD? What of Hype Beam?
While you have a point here, we do come across an issue of implementation. If one were to have the option to decide amongst 3 finishers, the Ultimate would need it’s own input, which could (I’m not saying it’s guaranteed to) provide issues with input overlap. I think it would be much tidier to consolidate Ultimate and Ultra inputs, for this reason - including Shago’s. [quote=“UncappedWheel82, post:30, topic:15575”]
In KI2, mini ultras were like battery enders, they were the only battery enders…other than Ultra’s themselves. Mini Ultras could do something similar in KI today. Make them give Shadow meter, or instinct.
[/quote]
KI already has battery enders, and they indeed factor into the decision making process when the opponent is KO’d mid-combo. Of course, if you need bar, you hit the battery ender and call it a day. Providing alternate utility to a cinematic would provide new balance issues to work around, specifically for characters that by design lack battery enders. I just see this one as a bridge too far.[quote=“UncappedWheel82, post:30, topic:15575”]
That is like saying that because Capcom added more stage transitions, that now SFV is less interesting because of them.
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This example does not affect decision-making in any way whatsoever. SF does not have similar round design, does not pose the player with any opportunities to make meaningful decisions upon taking the first round. Your opponent will lose all V-meter, regardless, while your non-V resources and your match-start positioning will be wholly unaffected. The Capcom example has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
It’s not about “variety” in a vacuum, but how the implementation of this “variety” could affect established elements of gameplay (i.e. decision-making), which is infinitely more relevant to whether or not a game is “interesting” (to play) than a variety of cinematic finishers.
Then there’s the player aspect. How many people can say that almost every shago they fought they would try and spam annihilation every chance they got with little to no success?
You give someone a “instant win” button and they WILL attempt to spam it till it lands.
Ah, weekly version of this thread.
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Ultimates require far too many resources for far too few a benefit when considering the alternatives.
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We are not living in the SNES days - People interested in “seeing all of the Ultimates” can and would simply watch a YouTube compilation before investing any cash.
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Ultimates would largely not be used by the competitive, online, or semi-casual communities after their initial few viewings.
Please continue catering content to the KI Players who actually consistently play the game.
That is how Ultimates work. They are death moves that you can activate in or out of a combo.
Sure. If Ultimates were incorporated, a new input is needed. That is just an implementation issue. Beyond that though, we now have CAM in the game, so having an “easy Ultimates” option is entirely possible.
Not all characters have a battery ender. And some characters have other resources they would like to gather at the end of a round other than meter.
Jago, Spinal, Fulgore, Kim Wu, all these characters have a purpose to keeping a combo going after death for the purpose of gaining instinct/health (Jago), or gaining skulls (Spinal), or gaining health, meter, instinct, and a dragon (Kim Wu). Characters like Wulf or Sadira don’t gain meter through a battery ender since they don’t have one, but if Mini Ultras were a thing, and they gave meter at the end of a round, then there would be a good incentive for those characters to do it.
If Mini Ultras worked how they worked back in KI2, they would add a more mind games for all the characters at the end of the first round.
That really isn’t true. In SFV, at the end of a round on certain stages, if you CHOOSE to end the round in a specific way you can extend the stage’s landscape, thus giving you more space to back up and/or play neutral. On that China Town stage, if you knock your opponent through the restaurant doors, you actually start the round in a different spot than the previous round because the stage has just got that much bigger. But lets forget SFV and talk MKXL.
Since MKX dropped over a year ago, there have be A TON of patches that have added, and taken away, restrictions on the multitude of Brutalities in that game. This is outside of all the balance changes. Did those additions make the game “less interesting”? On the contrary, Brutalities are heralded as one of the best aspects of the game, more dynamic and exciting than Fatalities, or even the stage fatalities.
Brutalities are to MKXL, what Ultimates were/could be/should be to KI; dynamic ways that a match can end…something that is more flashy that the opponent just falling over, or a simple Ultra ender.
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This actually reminds of something. The training stage. How many people do you think would pick only the training stage if it was a selectable stage? My prediction models show alot. I kinda want Ig to make the training stage selectable JUST to make a point on “wanting things just because”.
I wanna see what happens.
Wait…what?
You see Ultimates like you see the training stage?
People picked the training stage in SF4 during tournament so that they could pick the stage with the least going on (least lag), that also had the lines on the floor so that they could space things out better. People were trying to do the same thing after SFV dropped…but Capcom put a stop to that by making it a CPT rule that you HAD to fight your matches on regular stages.
DS/MS just by passed all the hub-bub back in 2013, by just making the stage unselected from the start.
But yeah, you see Ultimate as a “why not” option, or a “just cause” option, a “wanting things just because” option? Ultimates, Mini Ultras, all that stuff is what attracted the community to KI back then. To me, and I would imagine many others, KI without them just doesn’t feel complete. It would be like if a new dev started making MK and left out the Fatalities. When KI was announced in 2013, EVERYBODY was expecting Ultimates. Them not being in the game was source of disappointment.
The hope of their eventual inclusion was a source of excitement back then, but now…3 years later…when they still haven’t been implemented fully, some people (just me maybe…idk) still have hope that they will finally fulfill the Ultimate promise of KI.
See what I did there? 
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You mean how people don’t do Ultra any more right? Or how nobody on line does Stage Ultras.
Not every stage lagged. It’s not the only reason the training stage would be picked. SFxT, SF4, SF5 pretty much any fighter with a selectable training stage will get picked more often then not.
Oh come on, Sonic. I know it isn’t your first day in the internet.
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What, too cheesy?
Ultras/Stage Ultras remain a quick and competitively-viable way to end the game promptly. Ultimates, as well as double/triple ultras are time wasters when concering the game proper.