To arms! Maximilian's call for a new KI

General Discussion
182

the idea of a shadow breaker is interesting. what if we were to up the ante and make it riskier/more rewarding? say, someone counter breaks a shadow breaker. what would someone get? id say they take the opponent’s instinct meter, though idk how that’d be since iirc spinal has a mechanic for that.

other uses of meter

maybe spend 1 bar of meter to gain 1 extra second of lockout (1 time per match)
can use meter to do a combo breaker that resets the neutral like it used to, maybe 1 time per round
use meter to make it easier to get manuals? idk

im just throwing ideas out there really just to get some brain storming going and to see if any awesome ideas would pop up.

183

How about a complete lockout for the rest of the combo?

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I think they kinda went this way already with the L4 enders with Season 3 with the more dynamic camerawork…perhaps they could just make a L4 ender more stylized. I mean most of SF’s supers are just jacked up versions of regular moves…maybe that could work? Or perhaps they could bring back the equivalent of KI2’s 5th ender and have a unique cinematic ender, like an ender that incorporates all the moves in all the other enders if your combo meets certain requirements. For example, Jago’s would be something like wind kick into laser sword iinto fireball nto DP.

185

that’d be absolutely brutal, especially if youre playing our resident vampiress lol, say hello to 90% and up

186

Well, it would be high risk high reward…
I’m sure if they did something like that they would find a way to balance things out to where it’d be damaging but fair.

187

MK11’s meter is interesting in that I feel like it has a lot more going on under the hood than it lets on at first glance. “Comes back automatically” is definitely easy to see, but there’s also specific timings associated with the regen that the game doesn’t really say. Defensive meter returning more quickly from a cancel for frame advantage than a breakaway, when and where a move uses both bars, etc. There’s a fair amount of variation and move/character-specific stuff going on there.

KI has a nice risk/reward and choice associated with the enders giving different things (of which meter is one option), and I really like that element of its system. Let the player make strategic choices on what they value at any given time, and give up something to get the resource or situation that they desire. Timed meter (combined with large stages) can make runaway a bit obnoxious in MK11 I think. It’s too easy for some characters to just kind of back away and use very powerful meter burns to keep the opponent out for super extended periods. While I want keepaway and ranged play to be more viable in the next KI, I think I’d prefer to see it done in a bit of a different way than “meter burn into back away until meter returns, then meter burn again”.

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188

I think downplaying zoning in favor of more aggressive and hybridized playstyles is fairly sensible in a game where stuff like combo breakers and shadow counters are happening all over the place. If it wasn’t that way, zoners’ abilities to play around these mechanics safely could have ended up being too much.

I agree very much with the sentiment of new uses for meter, though. I’d really like to see more uses for it in the combo system like EX Auto-Doubles and EX Manuals. I imagine the former being a slightly slower but stronger attack that requires the defender to break both hits similar to shadow linkers, and the latter doing slightly more damage than a regular manual and letting you bypass manual restrictions.

Edit: Phones are hard.

189

To be honest I was thinking of it more along the lines of a burst-like mechanic, where it’s unstoppable and the announcer just screams “SHADOW BREAKER” and you get some specialized break animation. It would be kind of cool though if you could call it out and counter break it as well - it would be the ultimate soul stealing play. Instead of giving extra lockout time though (which is already high enough to make 50% basically the minimum punish), I’d have the counter instead gift the player who lands it two meters. So now not only are you getting smoked by a counter breaker, you’ve just gifted your opponent two extra bars to smoke you with. :joy: It’s pretty easy to see how this could be an incredibly potent conditioning tool, as well as make for hype moments at virtually all levels of play.

I’d be against some of the other meter uses you’ve got below just because I think we don’t want to add too many systems to a pretty complicated one already. I’m down for some of the core mechanics to evolve, but I think it’s important that additions be both sparing and impactful - each change should make a big enough gameplay difference to justify putting an additional layer of complexity in there.

I agree that the Level 4 enders are essentially trying to fill this niche, in that a few times a match you should be getting these moderately stylized combo enders that theoretically look pretty cool. Your mileage may vary on just how cool you think they look, but it certainly shows the team’s perspective on the concept. I think you could check the “cool cinematic” box by either expanding the work on the L4 enders or by incorporating a super-stylized KI2-esque “5th ender”, the latter of which would be my personal preference.

I think the real beauty of the MK11 krushing blows is that they manage to be really cool and impactful without slowing down the pace of the match, and that’s what I liked about L4 enders and would want for any spiritual successor. KI is a fast game and should embrace it - while I’d be cool with them adding more in-game flair, I’d be against any option that went more along the lines of an SF super or an MK11 Fatal Blow. We don’t need an unskippable 5-10 second cinematic in Killer Instinct.

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190

IDK the idea of a universal freebie combo breaker doesn’t sit right with me, even if you could try to counter break it. I think it would have to have tightly controlled conditions or a very severe cost, even more than what Gargos deals with surrounding his burst. Maybe it could work if there was some way it had to telegraph itself before it actually breaks, similar to breaking shadow linkers.

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  • I’d be up for more guests like Joanna Dark, Atriox and Skorge for a hypothetical new KI.
  • Also, if there’s a new soundtrack for each character, allow the use of their KI 3 themes or even those from 2 and 1.
  • I would love to see an improved version of Shadow Lords or something like that aswell as an Arcade Ladder for every character.
  • Bringing back everyone from KI 3 (Including Rash, Arbiter and RAAM)
  • Retro Customes for remaining cast (Shago, Omen, Kilgore and Shin Hisako)
192

Not against bring back everyone form KI 3. Though I’d like to see new characters too.

193

I’ve always thought Buck would be a good fit for another Halo character in the game. I would say Chief, but Buck has a much better personality. He could have a ODST retro costume, and even a green Mjolnir Mark VI Armor option in green so the Chief is represented as well. Oh, and Nathan Fillion as his voice obviously, even if they just reuse some lines from ODST, Reach, or 5.

194

I’m down for all of this.

I also want Battletoads to become KI’s Final Fight/Ninja Gaiden. It has so many cool potential fighters.

195

Although Buck or Chief sound nice, I feel having a human guest in a franchise full of interesting species is a waste of potential.
Atriox makes for a great pick for being some kind of rival with the Arbiter since they both accomplished similar things and the fact Atriox is a Brute.
His personnal Gravity Hammer, the Brute’s ferocity and maybe a Brute Shot makes for a nice potential moveset.

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196

Some ideas for the Retros.

Shadow Jago is an obvious one, you could basically make him a Shadow Retro Jago

Kilgore’s could be some kind of prototype with MGs instead of Mini-Guns and a more humanoïd appearence.

Omen is a rough one since his whole design isn’t really detailed. I’d suggest some kind of Shadowman, similar to MK’s Noob Saibot Double.

Unfortunately, I have no ideas for Shin Hisako.

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Honestly I feel the same way about NOT adding a human Halo character. With a good variety of armor sets and colors, a good deal of the Spartans and Marines could be represented in a single character…everyone from Chief to the Noble team to the RvB guys to all the ODST…er…ODSTs. there have been enough Spartan abilities and weapons made to make a pretty interesting and unique playstyle of his own. Ground pound, bubble shield (projectiles outside of it could bounce back), hologram(could be used like Krillin’s after image in DBFZ), rocket launcher, grenade launcher, and I’m sure there are even better options than what I just pulled out off the top of my head.
Though personally I think it’d be best to add both a spartan AND a brute like Atriox, because they both, alongside Arby, would add enough to pretty well cover any wants from the Halo fanbase.

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Yeah, I think it’s a pretty tough problem to play around on the development side. Too many too-good zoning and neutral options negate the combo game, and to a certain extent you want every character to engage with that core mechanic. I do think it’s doable though, and I know I’d personally like to see the devs try to walk that line in the next KI. The premiere zoning chars in the game shouldn’t have to be mixup monsters when close just to compete. S1 Glacius played the combo game pretty straightforwardly after all - I trust that there must be some way such a thing could be done again.

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On the character front, I emphatically do not want every character to return. I full stop don’t want to see Shadow Jago again, and would argue vigorously against him if he were to return in anything like his current gameplay iteration. I’d bounce Rash and Arbiter (though I think Arbiter is really cool, I think replacing him with Atriox or Tartarus would be dope), and I’d swap out Raam for Skorge. I’d remove Omen entirely as well, and absorb his random element gameplay function into an entirely new character. I also didn’t like KI1 Eyedol, and while I think his new design is pretty cool I wouldn’t care a whit if he were removed in a new title. None of the 3.5 chars except perhaps Eagle should return, and even for him I’d rework his gameplan a bit to either reduce some of his mobility or lessen the potency of his vortex.

So I’d nix 5-6 characters without any hesitation at all, though in some cases I would subsume some of their kit into somewhere else in the cast, and in others I’d replace them with other guests from their franchises. But either way I would trim the fat on these extra guests and bonus characters. KI already has a fairly complicated base system; its high character diversity means every addition piles on extra layers that make getting into it more difficult.

More broadly, at a very core level I feel that titles don’t need to try and incorporate their entire pasts into their newest versions. That leads to stagnant and repetitive rosters, sequels that feel too samey (ala Tekkens 4-6), and creative decay. Let a character disappear or breathe for a bit, and introduce new characters that have the space to actually develop a base of their own without being crowded out by everyone and their mother returning. Eyedol is a really cool character conceptually (even if I personally dislike him), but he had virtually no space to capture an audience in KI 2013 because the roster was already massive and people were already invested. That’s partially due to the KI release strategy, but it’s also a real danger to any FG with a sufficiently large cast, especially in a title where characters play really differently and require a certain amount of investment to understand and grasp. And let’s be real - the FG seasonal model isn’t going anywhere. We aren’t getting 30 characters for a new KI at launch. And even if we did, I’d consider it a tremendous waste for that to occur at the expense of introducing new and interesting characters.

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I agree with this 100%. Even series that have “significant” mechanical changes like Street Fighter - you could make a case that the difference between SFIV and SFV is not more than the differences between SFII and Super SFII. SF III is kind of the exception, but tellingly it wasn’t all that popular. I think a combination of things, including the death of arcades in general and the lack of online play contributed to that as much as any real fan distaste, but I think there is a real case to be made that fans demand the same game over and over again. And I think it sucks.

[text wall incoming - sorry]

Regarding KI, I feel very strongly that the series has had pretty substantial differentiation in the cast and the gameplay between iterations and I really want to see that with any new KI. I don’t necessarily want to pick my favorites but I would be very happy to see half the roster not move forward into the next game. I think it makes sense to ditch the guests. I agree Shadow Jago is a good candidate to leave. I think combining Omen and Shadow Jago into a “real” character makes sense if there are gameplay elements they want to keep from those characters. I also think Shin Hisako can go. I would be fine if Hisako left (sorry storm) but from a business point of view she’s a popular new character and I think they could do plenty with her. Maybe make a stance character that alternated between Hisako and Shin Hisako - although I haven’t really thought that out. I love Tusk but it’s hard for me to see how they could develop his archetype more.

For the game overall, I think the core combo mechanics should stay. Linkers, breakers and counter breakers are all great. I could live without manuals, although I know some people will howl. But the presence of manuals is one of the reasons people insist that breakers aren’t worth it and that counter breakers are bad. To me it seems like an “out” of the combo game for no good reason.

I would like some advance thought to go into the animation and the variety for the autodoubles and linkers. If there are going to be 30 characters in the game then the ADs need to have a uniform speed or be more easily distinguishable (I’m looking at you Hisako). It doesn’t make sense for some characters to have really confusing and hard to read ADs while others (like Riptor) have incredibly obvious tells that making breaking easy. If there are going to be 8-16 fighters then it’s fair to ask us to put some work in and learn the break points. But for a roster of 30, where some characters have really hard to read movements I think that’s a problem. If they want to do a single animation for punch and kick autos that’s fine with me, but do that for all the characters not just the ones at the end when you are running out of money. In other words, make deliberate decisions with an understanding of the game’s future.

I think ultra combos should be reworked. The musical ultras were great for this game but we don’t need recapture repeats ultras to try to get 110 hits. It’s played out. I’d like to see them go back to the super high speed ultras with a few tacked on juggles at the end that was used in the first two games. I also think KI2’s mechanic of adding to your ultra for each ender that you used in the match is really cool and would be much better in a more modern KI than it ever was in that game. I would stick to adding hits to the ultra and leave behind the additional hits in each ender though. This would make it a fun bonus for players rather than something that impacts the competitive game.

Finally, the visual style. I’m very happy with the way the current game looks but would love almost any reworked style. Even if it’s just variety for the sake of variety. I think some of the characters (Sabrewulf) would benefit from an update in both design and just execution of the aesthetic.

Finally, it would be nice to see something that makes people say “wow, that’s neat!” This could be striking visuals, weird ideas like KI 1 and 2s infinite bridge levels (yes I know this was terrible for gameplay) or pseudo 3D rooftops. I think this game started out with amazing gameplay and over the top particle effects for wow factor. They toned the particles WAY down - which earned much applause from the competitive community - but really made the game less of a spectacle.

So this is what I would LIKE to see. But honestly, what I EXPECT to see (assuming we get anything at all) is a graphically updated KI 2013.5 that takes the existing character models and move sets, exports them to a new engine, tweaks some of the interactions, polishes up the models and then calls it a day. I expect this for the same reason Capcom used the same SF sprites in ten games. It’s just a huge reduction in cost to copy paste your last game compared to actually making something truly new. And I honestly couldn’t say that’s a worse business decision than giving me what I want.

TL:DR

I would love to see bold changes to KI in a new game. But I don’t expect that will happen.

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201

Speaking of music, one difference I’d like to see in how the music is laid out is a bit of a structural change. Right now most tracks have about 2 states, let’s use letters for the base state and numbers for the high combo state. The game’s designed to go A-B-C-D, etc, but if you land 15 (?) hits on a combo it’ll switch over to 1-2-3-etc. so long as you can maintain hitting high hitcount combos before the current number is played out. Sounds neat in theory, but over time I’ve noticed what typically ends up happening in real matches is the music gets stuck in a loop where it basically goes A-B-1-C-1-D-1-E-1-2-F-1-Ultra Combo, meaning state 1 gets repeated over and over and over throughout the match. I was listening to some KI in my car the other day and came to the realization that a good portion of the music on the game’s tracks is never played due to this loop. (Edit: RKosmik on Youtube has even shown that some tracks like I’m Back (to Rise) have over 18 minutes of music to it! But you hardly hear much more than the start of the chorus over and over because of the low-high loop.)
My suggestion to fix this would be to have tracks where intensensity adds voices to a track rather than replace whole sections. Best example I can think of would be similar to the Yoshi effect in Super Mario World. Without a Yoshi, the music plays like normal, but when you hop on one the game adds a drumbeat to the tracks, and the game drops the drums when you hop off of one. The same could be applied to KI’s tracks. Also doing it this way would likely make it easier to bring back in tracks from previous KIs without a massive amount of reworking. They wouldn’t have to figure out how to slice up old tracks to fit a A-B-1-C-1 system…they could just add some new voices to pump them up…or even ignore the additive concept altogether and just play the classic tracks.
Anyway, that’s just a thought I had.

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