So, I thought about placing this topic in the Thunder/character section of the forum, but more people are complaining than not about his DP shenanigans. As a Thunder main I feel obligated to post the evidence that Thunder’s DP is in fact not as great as some of the enthusiasts are making it out to be. Is it good? absolutely. Is it Jesus smiling down on people who DP often with Thunder? No. Here’s a simple demonstration.
This clip I made displays zones where heavy Sammamish to Sky Fall, can hit or cross up. It also proves that on reaction (which takes practice), Thunder’s initial dp can be punished/interrupted during the active frames. I wouldn’t recommend attempting to trade with Sky fall as most of the time it will beat out almost any move, however, The first few initial frames are punishable. This is for the people who main characters that do have significant DPs to be combative with.
This clip was me initially experimenting, trying to see how often I could react to the incoming Sky Fall. I was obviously a little insane. However, once I realized it wasn’t something that would likely be a success, I found a simpler solution. Forward dash evade.
So there we have it, no more carrying on about Thunder’s DP cross ups, flying drop kicks, etc. All of that stuff is like -32/-34 & easily punishable. If you get hit by one of these, then you miscalculated your spacing, or just got too damn comfortable. Chula out!
Sky fall is exactly what it needs to be, and has always been since the beginning. It works as a cross & an overhead.
It actually can trade with Jago’s DP, it’s just hard to time it which means it should only be attempted judiciously. Furthermore, any character in the game can be hit out of a back dash, as it isn’t safe.
I can agree with this to an extent. I believe the follow ups should be available on block considering his low mobility. Getting in can be very challenging, and is often high risk or high reward.
Wait… are you suggesting that the “ways to deal” with Skyfall are:
Get crossed up at ranges where the hitbox/hurtbox interaction visually doesn’t make sense (video one, attempt 3)
Get hit out of your backdash
Get hit out of your DP
DP Thunder before he cancels into Skyfall, and hope that you win the exchange, though it’s likely you’ll trade or be counterhit anyway
This thread seems more like reasons Skyfall after a blocked DP shouldn’t be a thing. At the very least, it shouldn’t be an option after his EX DP is blocked, considering the invincibility. And in general, I don’t like physical attacks that connect even though the attacker is visually not touching the opponent, so maybe a hitbox reduction as well.
I’ve got no issue with it on hit or whiff. I actually really like that Thunder can use his DP’s as (hella risky) movement options. It’s kinda fun to DP midscreen and wait a sec before throwing out the dropkick.
That’s not what it needs to be, at least not now anyway. And that’s not also exclusively how it works. Right now, sky fall is a combo opener that leads to very damaging cashouts with meter that thunder always seems to have. It’s also a very fast movement option. It’s also one of three follow ups, all with very different timings and very different ways to punish, for his totally invincible shadow reversal.
Far from a simple crossup/overhead gimmick.
Yeah, it makes no sense that it would trade with a true DP, sorry. It also makes no sense that it would catch you out of a well spaced backdash, which it does because it’s hitbox is far too big.
I won’t even comment on the part about backdases not being safe as that has zero to do with this situation. The move has enough active frames that it’ll catch a backdash that’s well timed, it seems. Not because the backdash has recovery frames, but because skyfall’s active frames extend enough that they’ll catch those recovery frames, when IMO, this shouldn’t happen.
Low mobility has little to do with the follow ups on block. If you get sammamish blocked you already reached your opponent before doing it. Hence, you didn’t need to use it for mobility. Furthermore, shadow shammamish will never, ever, ever, be a movement option. It’s a true invulnerable reversal and has nothing to do with mobility.
Don’t forget thunder’s mobility was also buffed not only with 2 additional follow ups to sammamish but also a buffed dash outside of instinct if you charge it. These days it’s not as hard to get in as it once was.
I’m inclined to agree with the others; if you wanted to make a thread showing ways to deal with skyfall you definitely failed to do that. All anyone’s going to see from this is just how crazy hard it is to avoid.
This example not only shows how hard to react its this move, but also its leaving out of the board something very important: shadow CotE.
Since Thunder doesn’t need meter for an invincible reversal, he can use it for other purposes. So for example, in your example you struggle to stop an attack that you knew was coming. But you were also most of the time on range of CotE. So Thunder can choose between a hard to react attack or a command throw which leads to a juggle.
If I were to balance Thunder, I would:
-Remove shadow shammanism follow ups
-Remove l. shammanism invulnerability
-Remove the chance to use skyfall if shammanism gets blocked
-L. Shammanism can be followed up with skyfall (not on block)
Thunder would need meter to get his reversal, and shammanism its a more risky tool
Others have pointed it out already, but there is a meaningful difference between old skyfall, which crossed up and knocked down, and new skyfall, which crosses up and leads into very dangerous juggle/flipout extensions. The two versions are vastly different in terms of what Thunder gets off of them, and because of the existence of fully-invincible l. sammamish, Thunder is a lot more free to toss his DP out in general without fear of getting stuffed.
He can have a reversal, but not free. Shadow shammanism can be a true reversal, but if he has L. Sham. as free reversal, he instantly uses that meter in other areas, giving him an absurd ammount of screen control
Its imperative for me to note that every time I was hit, it was for sake of example. I’m familiar with Thunder’s ranges and I wanted to display the ways he could hit, and the ways to avoid getting hit by sky fall.
I think the reversal is fair considering that we can’t use DP in more ambiguous ways, the way we were able to in season 2. We can no longer randomly cancel the recovery frames into over specials. The guy needs all the tools he can have up close. I think the true dp was a good call. I only use the reversal if I know I’m going to be pressured on wake up. It’s just too unsafe to risk using in the neutral game. it’s -32.
I’m confused by the solution the OP has reached. Is the answer to skyfall pre-emptively forward dashing during the startup of Thunder’s DP? That’s, like, super impossibly difficult during real matches, and you actually still might get tagged if he does medium DP into skyfall instead. It’s also not possible if you get put in block stun by the DP first, as Thunder’s DP has massive horizontal range and might make contact with you. And if he does no DP, you are just dashing into a Thunder poke or shadow CotE.
The rest of your video showed that trying to challenge it outright is a pretty bad idea.
I displayed both ways in which to deal, & not to deal. What you guys choose to do with this information is completely up to you. It’s not supposed to be easy to avoid, but that doesn’t make it impossible, which is also displayed. There are more pressing moves in the game, like Fulgore’s teleport dp that doesn’t telegraph at all. It’s literally unreactable. Even if you’re looking for his teleport you have no idea where it’s going to go.
My suggestion its giving L. Shammanism its follow ups again, but losing its total invul. in exchange.
So you get more mixups using one more strengh of shammanism, but lose your free meter wake up.
Saving meter for a true reversal conditionates his damage and options. Otherwise, Thunder has meter to spare, and staying in range of shadow cote its really bad. And if you jump, bam, shammanism into mix up.
So currently Thunder dominates both ground and sky if he has meter (which is ok), but since he doesnt need meter for defense, thats a lot of time (which is not ok)
Okay, but if I make a video of me DPing with jago when the opponent does a move from neutral and post a thread called “Tired of footsies? Here are ways to deal”…you understand why people are going to take issue with that, right?