All I know is this… Thunder’s Sky Fall makes Sadira cry. 
I think the best way to deal with delayed followups (if you have a really good read on a delay) is to forward/back dash out of range. I think the best way to deal with instant DP into instant followup is to try to block it and then punish, then hope Thunder doesn’t have instinct to cancel and then also hope he doesn’t have crow dash to change his position on you.
It’s cool to know that pre-emptively dashing (if you manage to nicely fit inside the “triangle” of hitboxes that is formed from doing DP up and then skyfall down) will be out of range of followups, but OP, do you think this is viable in real matches against real opponents who might also press other buttons in neutral?
Very much this. These are just evasive techniques that can be used with habitable Thunders, because most Thunders love to DP a lot. Even I’m a bit guilty of it.
It’s not that impossible in a real match. Some players have managed to escape my DP shenanigans just fine, rendering them useless.
The dp is reactable. I knew this because I had been interrupted and evaded in real matches. It’s not hard to react to it if you’re paying attention to the visual cues.
Very true. In most cases as I even stated, it’s better not to trade with Sky Fall because it doesn’t work most of the time.
What would be the issue if it is a fact that Jago’s dp eliminates him needing to deal with footsies? If something works, then we should use it right? In this case, I’m displaying ways that evasive tech can be used in the realm of reaction in accordance to Thunder’s dp to sky fall, or not; specifically using Heavy DP because most Thunders like to get close when they’re not in range to strike or play actual footsies & use normals. The move is super negative. I get so much flack for using dp moves that are high risk at -32/-34, I just don’t understand that. So This post just shows ways to deal with it, & ways not to deal with it.
Of the meterless variety? No, I don’t think he should have a meterless invincible reversal. I might feel differently if his DP had no follow-ups (in which case it would serve the same purpose/utility as a Jago or Orchid DP), but with his variety of sammamish follow-ups I feel it’s a bit of a bridge too far.
Thunder gets an insane amount off his DP follow-ups, which come from his non-invicible DP’s. But one of the main reasons those DP’s aren’t challenged more forcefully to begin with (even apart from the way skyfall trades with AA’s) is because light sammamish is invincible. It creates this nasty Catch-22 where you can’t stuff his wakeup without tailor-made shenanigans (that many characters don’t have), and that dynamic is exacerbated from the fact that if you sit still to bait the DP, Thunder can 5 frame shadow command grab you from nearly half a screen away. And he generally has that bar, because he isn’t forced to use it to defend himself like he used to. That excess bar also makes the raw DP’s even more dangerous, because now he has access to a shadow cashout off a stray skyfall or anti-air.
Thunder has exceptionally good offensive capabilities, and he actually has one of the better low-crush specials in the game. Even without an invincible meterless DP, he’s far from having the worst defense in the game. Given his mixup potential and high damage, no, I don’t think he deserves a true meterless reversal. He has a variety of good tools, and doesn’t need a true DP to make him viable or competitive.
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I can agree with this. I’d be cool to settle for follow up’s after the light dp. I liked it better anyway. I rarely use the light dp reversal honestly. Want to play a set later? I want to test my luck against that Hisako.
Because that’s not a fact.
DP into skyfall is potentially reactable, sure, but here are some things to consider:
- Skyfall requires an atypical defensive response. Most mixups that come from neutral are dealt with either using high/low blocks or jumping, while skyfall requires you to switch your guard direction which is both slower and something you’re less likely to be prepared to do.
- Thunder has options that require high/low/jump responses from close to optimal skyfall crossup range, which means preparing to deal with skyfall is going to leave you more open to other troublesome moves.
- The human eye is worse at tracking vertical/diagonal movement than horizontal. This is why hitting consistently with anti-airs is so difficult for many people. Even if the number of startup frames are in the realm of reactability it doesn’t mean it’s something people are regularly going to be able to do.
To imply that reacting to skyfall is not hard and that people that fail to do so are simply not paying attention is just wrong.
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Sure. I’m game to play around 6 or 630 EST, if that works for you.
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I never said it wasn’t hard, I just made note that it was in fact reactable, & not impossible to evade or trade with. The clips display that evidence. If Thunder is your opposition and he is at a range where he cannot hit you, then its imperative to be on guard for two things…
- Thunder Dping his way in.
- Thunder buffing COS to dash through.
His DP is likely the better option because of it’s upper body invulnerability & follow ups, in comparison to COS buff which does have some invincible frames but takes quite a bit of precision timing to use if you’re getting zoned. So yes, it is indeed imperative to pay attention to spacing. A lot of players lose to me, because they are not paying attention to their spacing. They often think they are in a range thats safe where they can’t be touched, & that is to the sake of giving themselves too much grace and getting comfortable. It happens. Thunder is known for his DP overall. In my opinion it’s his greatest tool, but it’s not impossible to evade or punish it if you’re looking for it; which you should always be.
Eh. The issue with this is that if Thunder has a meter, then once he dashes to anywhere within half-screen you’re essentially staring at a pure 50/50. If he dashed into Shadow COTE, then you’d better be jumping or backdashing or you just got hit. If he dashed and does DP instead, then congrats, you just jumped into a move where he can now juggle you repeatedly or flip you out at his discretion (subject to breaks of course). If you sit still and he DP’s, then you still have to make the defensive read on a very ambiguous cross-up or not mixup, because all sammamish follow-ups are a pain in the ■■■ the AA.
Realistically, unless you play Thunder or are very observant, it’s actually pretty difficult to tell whether he’s going to cross you up or not at certain ranges. It’s a guess that has to happen very quickly, and options you would normally have to simply not deal with it (like punish before he hits the ground), don’t work right because of how much priority his follow-ups seem to have. Things like that tend to annoy people - Thunder’s dash has like 3 layers of mixups embedded in it, and being wrong on any layer will have eating a goodly chunk of damage.
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[quote=“CHANCHULA, post:23, topic:13733, full:true”]It’s not hard to react to it if you’re paying attention to the visual cues.
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It would be easier to have this discussion if your message was more consistent. shrug
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I appreciate the thought from the OP, that Thunder DP from 3/4 screen can kind of be dealt with on a read by forward dashing. It’s something I might consider using sparingly from time to time. In that sense, I think it’s a cool thing to know.
It’s just definitely not a go-to solution to always handling the move. Every time you dash and are wrong, you put yourself in a terrible position… essentially, you either get hit or expose yourself to a gross mixup because of shadow grab, delayed DP, or just having to block something.
I also think we have to be careful when talking about what is “possible” in fighting games, and what is “realistic” to expect players to actually do. Jago DPing 50% of footsies buttons is possible, but not realistic for a regular human being who also has to worry about all sorts of other things when playing. I’m definitely skeptical that Thunder’s DP can be realistically reacted to from 3/4 screen with enough regularity to make Thunder players stop DPing. Remember, if you’re even a few frames late on your reaction, you get dunked big time. Committing to forward dash means you are committing to not block.
If Thunder players 100% of the time DP from a very specific range (ie, you have a read), then this is a good way to avoid blocking the stomp. So it’s good to know. I just don’t think good players (even DP-happy good players) will make it that easy on you.
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The only thing that makes it hard in this case would be negating to use the solutions I’ve presented, which aren’t hard to implement given that you’re paying attention and on guard as you should be. You’d be standing in your own way if you didn’t. It’s that simple.That should put the hard part to rest.
My problem with your solutions its that they are not universal.
Ok, that works for Jago. But as Aganos, if I have no chunks I’m fucked, my hurtbox its huge so you will tag me yes/yes. Also, my dash is horrible.
Even chunked you hit me with it, because if I’m grounded, CotE incoming, if I jump to evade a possible CotE, shammanism incoming, and the armor doesn’t work airborne.
You can use this example in more characters. And I do know that characters maybe have to struggle against Thunder. But still its odd for me
I’m not stating that this solution is an always go to solution. There are variables that fall into play during a real match of course and in the midst of using different characters; I understand that. The point is that DP is -32/-34 and totally punishable, & reactable if you’re paying attention to the cues. The proof is here. You can use the tech, or you can opt not to use the tech. The choice is completely up to you.
You should probably add to the list of stipulations; it also assumes that they never delay the skyfall to make it hit in front, which will beat dashing forward.
I just don’t know how to approach this, man. First you say it’s not hard to react to if you’re paying attention, then you turn around and say you never said that, and now you’re once again saying that if a person is paying attention it’s not hard to deal with, which is simply not true.
I also want to address another thing you said:
[quote=“CHANCHULA, post:29, topic:13733, full:true”]I just made note that it was in fact reactable, & not impossible to evade or trade with. The clips display that evidence.
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The clips don’t actually show that it’s reactable at all, because you’re doing this vs a dummy set to perform the exact same actions about once every 6 seconds. Not to say that it’s impossible to react to, but I think that shouldn’t be ignored.
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Just because thats your truth doesn’t mean that it’s the truth of other enthusiast. I don’t have issues with Thunder’s dp because I’m always looking for it. I react to it despite 6 second intervals. If you’re looking for it you can react to it. It’s called the read.
Only if I have other means of dealing with it, like liquidize or parry. Blocking? You’re still asking for a lot.
On the contrary, I’m not asking for anything. I’m just offering solutions that might work for you, or might not work for you. Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Read what I quoted. You’re trying to make a statement that if you see the move coming you can react. And this is only an assumption, but when you say “react” I assume you also mean “block/dodge and punish.”
Meanwhile, I watch Thunder players with the expectation that they’re going to dp everytime we’re in neutral, and I still can’t consistently punish it because of how the move works.