I think the general idea here- the constant and nonstop tweaking and changing of characters, buffs or nerfs- is a fair point as to why people get annoyed with the game.
This recent Jago nerf, and I don’t even play the character, is a classic example. Thompsxon won two majors in a row with that HP gain. Did NOT win evo, and evo top 16s were NOT filled with Jagos. Yet, Jago gets a nerf anyway. Because of 1 guy. Again, it’s not that the nerf itself makes people annoyed, it’s the fact your character is bound to be very different, especially if tournaments or people online start going a certain way.
I wonder what this game would be if the nonstop changes were left alone for a few months to let the community decide how to deal with strengths and weaknesses, with the balance patches only addressing obviously game-breaking behavior, like early S1 Sadira.
I’ve always wondered about this though. Remember when somewhere by the end of season 2, the devs created a poll about Fulgore’s H. Eye Laser, asking about if they should shortened the range (eg. So Aganos’s height wouldn’t put him at a disadvantage), or titled the angle a little higher?
Could those kind of polls be a way to help out adjusting certain moves on the characters, or is it simply too difficult (and probably a little bias) to consider?
If you went online and it took you 10-15 min to connect to an opponent that was waaay out of your skill level, and said person was the only player it would ever connect you to because he was all the servers could find, then yeah, I’d say the game would be dead. But currently that’s far, far, far from the case.
The problem with polls is that popular opinion is often incorrect, and over and over again you see examples in game development where players are given exactly what they ask for - and then hate it. A lot of it is “vocal minority” syndrome where a complaint shows up a lot not because it’s a common complaint but because the people making it are passionate about it an therefore leave the impression that they are a larger group.
As far as whether the game needs to be “left alone” I think this is kind of a specific view of tournament players. It came up toward the end of S2 as well. But when the updates stop, there is a pretty sharp decline in participation in these boards as well as a decline in number of online players - at least in my anecdotal experience. I think the fact that the game is “living” gives a lot of people who aren’t making top 8s anywhere something to be interested in.
Understandable, most of the things that some of the vocal minority tend to get too bitching about do often get out of hand, and its does seem that they’re more interested in seeing KI to fit in their own perspective that only makes sense to them, rather than let other ideas speak for themselves and see what works and what doesn’t.
Even then, while those kind of people really do want KI to be great, its still frustrating to see some of them continue to act toxic and irrational about some of the tiny things that they’re willing to miss out the big picture of what makes this particular Killer Instinct incarnation becoming a classic fighting game.
I keep looking on these forums for help and the discord group but its always so empty. Unless you say x needs a buff or nerf. Then the entire squad shows up.
Yeah the adjustment policy is a bit weird. IG seem to be of a mind that OP is a state of mind and we should really give matchups a chance before we cry for adjustments. Then, suddenly, an adjustment we never expected comes out of nowhere. Maya and Eyedol are exceptions. Everyone wanted them nerfed.
That’s a really common problem with market research–companies use it to ask customers what they want rather than what their problems are. Nobody knows what they want. But we all know what our problems are. Problems can be turned into solutions far easier than express desires can.
We are not seeing the whole picture. They have been using all new characters for more time than us. And they balance looking for the long time.
I’m sure about Mira being one of the most powerful characters if she would remain uncheck after her release. Now she loses more life and her wall splat setup recovers less. They(The devs) aim for a balanced game for years. They dont want a MvC2, with storm/sentinel/magneto reigning for 10 years.
Eyedol its pretty obviously broken, so we all agree about him being nerfed.
Almost nobody saw Kan-Ra as a broken character on launch. Then they suddenly start to nerf him without being requested. And what a surprise, some specialists start to make him look OP, and all the nerfs make sense.
So the game its evolving, and more “unexpected” balance changes will come. They do them for a greather cause, not just “because”.
Have some faith in the long term guys, they (devs) deserve it
I tend to set a pretty high barrier for requesting nerfs. If it’s completely and obviously causing the game to function in a way that wasn’t intended - and that’s bad for gameplay, then I say go for it. Otherwise I just try to deal with whatever the devs decide to do.
This isn’t a “holier than thou” thing, it’s a personal mental health consideration. It’s too easy to lose to something and allow myself to start thinking “that’s bullshit. Why can character X do such and such and I can’t do anything about it?” Then before you know it you are in downtown scrubsville blaming the game for every loss and being miserable instead of trying to work your way through the things that beat you.
Personally, I find it a relief to give up the burden of trying to balance the game and instead just shoulder the responsibility of trying to play the best I can. I know that there are legitimate issues and people have valid views on different characters. But it seems like 99% of game balance discussions are just salt+rationalization=demands. Even when very high level players are involved it doesn’t seem to come to much more than “I don’t like it, so change it.” Obviously there are exceptions, but at the end of the day I find it easier to put it aside and just play the game in front of me. Maybe when I feel like my execution and decision making are perfect I will re-evaluate.
Seriously, some high level players really surprise me sometimes. Seeing something like Kan-ra’s MU table on the community tier and Fubuki giving him a losing match 9-1 against Gargos it’s just pure downplaying
We had this discussion. That basically tells people kan-ra can’t do ANYTHING. It’s essentially, kan-ra and gargos appears on-screen the match is already over. Which I find complete bogus. But whatever.
It does feel like when many players (usually the irrational, whiny, and/or inexperience kinds) request for certain buffs or nerfs, they all gang up like in this weird bureaucracy fashion to try and almost never justified in having a better advantage in whatever character they’re playing as so they can feel better of being a better player than really letting characters to be their own individual creation for a variety of players to experience.
I personally find it so tiring and sometimes idiotic when some players always complain certain aspects in some of the characters like their unique gimmicks are a unfair advantage or don’t feel like KI, who the hell are they to decide on how this character is supposed to play as, than how they want to play the character?
This has got to be the most absurd thing I’ve ever read on this forum. The online part of the FGC isn’t actually FGC? What? Online has become fundamental to the FGC now. Every major offline tournament is streamed to twitch and discussed at mass on Twitter and Facebook. People level up and practice online. None of this is FGC because it doesn’t happen face to face? What?
The thing about the game balance is that the devs have shown they include player success in their list of criteria for nerfs/buffs, but it’s not the only thing they consider.
Their ultimate goal is the most fun, most balanced game they can possibly create. It will never be perfectly fun for all players, nor will it be perfectly balanced, but they are going to try.
Obviously, if something is incredibly good and incredibly frustrating to fight against, the team will change it. This has been shown numerous times in the past during S2’s development, for instance (say, Maya’s whole DP + dagger situation).
But it also means that if something isn’t actually that good, but still incredibly frustrating to fight against, they may look into adjusting it as well, just to keep the game as fun as possible. Of course, it’s up to the developer’s discretion as to what is good and what is frustrating. They can listen to player feedback to help them determine this (and if you are constructive with your comments, you are much more likely to be heard), but they do get to make the final decisions.
It also means that somebody winning a tournament with Jago does not immediately mean Jago will get nerfed. It also means that if someone isn’t winning a tournament with a character that they won’t be changed. The devs are smart enough to realize when a character is too powerful/frustrating vs. when a player just put in a ton of work and outplayed opponents with tools that still make sense in the game engine. It’s a factor in their decisions but not the only one.
If a character gets changed, it was because they deemed the balance or fun factor/degeneracy is too skewed one way or another.
I don’t want to speak for @Hotsumari but I think you’re misinterpreting what he is saying a bit. I don’t think he’s talking about “FGC” status so much (notice he didn’t use that phrase) as the distortion that mass internet communication in twitch chat lobbies and Twitter can leave people with the idea that their opinions are popular and representative when they are not. This is mostly mirroring and self selection (i.e. You tend to follow people you agree with).
Regardless, we have these blow ups over who gets to be the “keeper of the flame” when it comes to defining who or what is a legitimate part of the community every now and then and I don’t see anything constructive coming out of it.
I agree with you completely that the online “community” is important and shouldn’t be dismissed. I’ve played fighting games extensively since I was 15 (when SF 2 came out) and I’ve never participated in an offline tournament. I am certain there’s 1000 or more guys like me for every one who has ever attended Evo. That’s not a disparagement of the offline community, but I think numbers matter.
By the same token there are 100,000 scrubs for every Evo champion as well. I think at some point the devs need to make a game that is fun and engaging for those players too. But if they balance the game around them, we wouldn’t have things like throws.
I know I’m rambling a bit here, but I think everyone consistently fails to acknowledge how hard it is to make a game, and then how impossible it is to balance that game to please everyone. I want to get us back to the idea that it’s not so simple as “just do what I want and then the game will be fixed!!” We have a 26 character roster full of characters with unique traits. It’s not just 24.5 variations on fireballs and DPs (yes, that’s an exaggeration, don’t freak out SF fans - I love that series too). Whether those complaints are coming from online or offline players I just think people need to be more diplomatic in the way they discuss game balance.
Misinterpreting what he said? I’m just going off of exactly what he wrote. He literally said online interactions aren’t community, twice, only physical ones are and thats 100% absurd. By that logic nothing that happens on this forum is part of the community, and that just isn’t true. I don’t know what anything else you wrote has to do with what I said, as I never even mentioned KI or game balance, but I definitely do agree with you. People don’t understand that at all, and the game will in the end always be in there hands and not ours, no matter how much we can contribute.
