The Replay and Analysis Thread

#1210

Every. Jago. Does this. I think Eyedols do it most of all, like they only have half the time to DP, so they do it twice as much while in Warrior. Part of the mix-up with DP characters is just crouch blocking and letting them hang themselves

#1211

Heh. Good Jago’s will tend to block - I’m just not a good Jago :3

In all seriousness though, better players will tend to play actual defense on the vast majority of their wakeups. Standing back and doing nothing is just letting them wakeup for free. Against a character like Hisako (who has very little to fear from 95% of the invincible reversals in the game), I think you’re much better off pressuring them on wakeup most of the time. She can blow up reversal attempts and maintain pressure - it’s good to take advantage of that instead of letting people get up for free.

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#1212

Played another extended session with @WebNRagnarok. Matches are below.

Part 1:

Part 2:

The matches were fun! On my end, I was trying to work on my reversal DP’s on hitbox, so you guys will see me whiff a lot of seemingly random cr.HP’s and MP’s and fireballs right before I eat a jump kick :sweat_smile: I like hitbox for literally everything else, but Dp’ing out of blockstun can be tough…

On to feedback for Ragnarok:

  • Good improvement overall. Could tell you were a lot more comfortable this set as compared to the last one.
  • You did much better job capitalizing on lockouts, so good stuff there :+1:t5:
  • You spaced your heavy kunais much better in these matches. I got the chance to SC you for tossing it out a lot less this time. It’s always DP punishable though, so still be wary.
  • You played the breaker game much better. A lot less guessing, though you can still do with less of that overall.
  • On the negative side, you still let me break the exact same things in the exact same way too many times. I broke almost every heavy AD you did, and broke every single shadow spin on 1-2-3. You have to challenge that more consistently.
  • Don’t waste your instinct time comboing a corpse.
  • Use shadow counters more. On about 97-ish% of my knockdowns I did MK->laser sword. Literally almost every time I knocked you down, that was how I pressured you. I think I maybe ate 5 or 6 shadow counters across all 30 games.
  • Relatedly, don’t jump or use shadows on someone who has demonstrated they can and will meaty you. On a bunch of my meaties where you got tagged I found myself wondering what exactly you were trying to do. Sometimes it was a shadow, but I’m guessing you were jumping or teching throw or something. Gotta just block it out sometimes homie :sweat_smile:
  • Also relatedly, you’re very buttonsy on defense. In a lot of instances you are prone to challenge with jabs or try to tech throw, which leaves you vulnerable to frame traps (particularly ones off jump-ins).
  • You jab challenge a lot, but you get basically nothing out of it because immediately after you always jump. And on that note…

You jump too much. Or rather, you rely on jumping too much. I think you use Sadira’s mobility as a bit of a crutch that covers other gaps in your play. There’s one really interesting sequence in the second video where you are pressuring me, and you are literally jumping for about 20 seconds, just a whole suite of double and single jump cross-ups and fake cross-ups, while I block it all out. No empty lows, no grabs, no frame traps after the j.HK - just another jump. That’s interesting enough on its own, but the really funny thing is that the sequence is almost identical to several others throughout the set, where I do a much poorer job of blocking but the pressure you apply is almost entirely the same. Even though you’re hitting me, there’s no confirm or acknowledgement that you’ve opened me up - just another jump into button.

To be sure, it’s on me as a player that I couldn’t better stop that (damned reversal DP’s! -shakes fist angrily-). But still, it indicates to me that your offense is really flow-charty, with not a ton of thought about what your opponent is doing informing your sequence. A block’s as good as a hit’s as good as me actually getting that reversal DP, because so long as you’re jumping you’re happy. It was almost 25 games in before you started altering your trajectory after your wall clings, and I think that was the case because you aren’t really basing what you do on the tendencies and capabilities your opponent has shown. Sadira’s aerial mobility is good so you just use it, full stop, without necessarily thinking about the “why”. That works for you because Sadira is hard to defend against and tough to land solid punishes on, but that lack of thought with respect to the “why” bleeds into other aspects of your game also. Count how many times you anti-aired (as opposed to air-to-aired) me across these 30+ games - do you need two hands to do it? I think gaps like that and always trying to run away from pressure (or even when it’s your turn) stem from a lack of asking that fundamental “why?” question.

Your tech with Sadira is impeccable. But I think you may be focusing too much on all the cool things she can do, and not slowing down enough to ask why it’s good or why particular things open people up at particular times.

#1213

I was up WAY early this morning due to sinus problems, and so I watched the sets. Honestly I think a lot of my stuff looks like I’m almost fighting on auto pilot. Part of it is that I’m so honed in on wanting to jump, I do it out of instinct, versus careful planning. I also noticed a LOT of sloppy buttons on my part, especially in terms of juggles. Then again you have a talent from breaking almost every one. :smile:

To be fair, for me, I was REALLY getting tired and I could see it in my gameplay, but over all, I have to work on my inputs.

Defense is also something going to have to work on a LOT. I am getting better. I can see it with comparison to some of my old videos to my newer ones, but if I want to earn that Star, I gotta do a lot better.

Over all, I was happy that I actually started to win matches. When you play against top players, it teaches you a whole new level of fighting, versus playing the “normal people”. :smile:

#1214

I’ve been playing sets with the UA guys and others like them, and going back to Ranked is like playing a whole different game. I’ve actually been doing worse in Ranked, when I get a chance to play it, because people just do totally different stuff I no longer expect.

#1215

I always advocate playing Ranked at first to build up skills and experience. There’s no substitute for seeing someone go absolutely nuts and make a ton of conventionally bad decisions - you need to get accustomed to seeing nonsense and countering accordingly. Joe Ranked is who you’ve got to run through first in pools.

If Sadira does an air light punch and then buttons, those buttons will always be mediums. Her heavies are semi-reactable and also tend to come at particular points in the round from you. You mixed up your patterns a lot better this go around, but you’ve overall still got some distinctive (to me anyway) combo “chunks” that you default to in certain situations. Pay attention to what I break and when and you can blow me up for some of that stuff. Others like the light->medium target combo or Sadie’s grounded AD’s are fully reactable, and you’ll need to counterbreak to dissuade the breaks. When counterbreaking though, you need to let me see what you’re doing - you often counter well before I’ve registered what the hit is at all.

Part of what I was getting at in my notes above is that I don’t think this is especially true. The games you lost were by and large not lost because of less-than-clean inputs - they were lost in the decisions that you made. Decisions to jump again instead of confirming an opening, decisions to hold up on wakeup or to web cling across the entirety of the stage for the nth time. A decision to jump after a successful jab interrupt of my pressure instead of committing to the combo. Those are the things that cost players games; very seldom is a slightly less than optimal juggle the real reason why you lose.

You should be. As I said above, you played a much stronger set than the last time! :slight_smile:

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#1216

Hey dude, you’re exceedingly knowledgeable of the upper skill-set of mechanics for KI. So I am fairly certain you caught most, if not, all things you were doing throughout.

Still, can’t help but see Jago and ask if you’d like input?

#1217

My notes, Ragnarok…

The games overall in general were much better on the whole than the last set that i saw between you and Storm. But there were some critical things that i noticed. I will echo what i said from before, you do not seem completely comfortable playing grounded at all. I listed the situations that struck me through the first set…

3:32, 19:19 - Storm whiffed a counter breaker, but you chose to cross up jump versus a button punish or even a throw.
17:45 - Storm whiffed a counter breaker, but you punished with st HP into cross up jump.

0:50, 8:30, 8:47, 10:13, 11:32, 14:09, 15:33, 22:56, 30:47 - Storm whiffed a DP, but you jumped as an answer.
30:27 - This is another instance of Storm DP’ing but this one was where you actually blocked it and still jumped.

All of these instances across just the first set tell me two things.

  1. You need to work on punishes and training your instinct to not jump at clear punish opportunities. Be it auto pilot or a reliance on her mobility, you are not taking advantage of some of the most clear cut opportunities to punish (or at least press advantage) KI offers. That’s something that will absolutely kill you in the long run. It may be doing so already. And if you’re not currently aware, you have to learn to see these as opportunities to punish. Ingrain it into your playstyle that if you see these, jumping is not the first answer. And this might take lab time.

  2. No aware opponent will respect anything you do if they get zero punishment from having high risk moves like DP’s/counter breakers not connect. Think about how absolutely huge that is. And think about how it was demonstrated through the set. Most times when you had those whiff DP’s, i wanna say 99% of the time, Storm blocked the immediate answer of M kunai. And 2 out of 3 times, Storm got away with a whiffed counter breaker absolutely damage free. If i can get away scott free for absolutely blasting you with DP’s, (and it doesn’t matter if they whiff or are blocked) why would i ever stop DP’ing you? Why would i ever stop counter breaking you? Why would i not take every chance i wanted to if there was no punishment? I don’t want it to seem like i’m ragging on you, but that is such a huge hole that it cannot be understated.

Let me ask a question. Storm started tagging you fairly consistently for web clings as the set went along. What solution do you have for a Jago that is doing that to that approach?

An interesting exchange at 27:50 where you and Storm exchanged corner positions a couple of times. But when Storm had his back to the corner, you didn’t pressure him for it. Can i ask why you didn’t press?

Another question, was there anything pattern that you picked up on regarding sweeps in the two sets?

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#1218

Absolutely. I’m aware of a lot of my flaws and tendencies with Jago, but it’s entirely likely that I’ve got some extra ones that I haven’t noticed. A lot of the gaps are more about adjusting to things on the fly - I play him less, so have less ability to freestyle or adapt with him even after I see patterns of success and failure. I’ll know I should do something differently, but lack the flexibility that allows me to actually make the adjustment. My inputs are much more rigid overall for all my alts actually; Hisako’s the only character I can really freewheel with I’m afraid. :sweat_smile:

As mentioned before, the skill I was most wanting to work on for the set was reversal DP’ing out blockstun, so feel free to omit my many, many failings in that area in your feedback :joy:

#1219

Ayyy check it out!
Wheels uploaded two FT10s in which I struggle WAY too much in a 4-6 AND a bit too much a 6-4. My ability to play anti gargos and general defense was put on blast. Keep in mind wheels doesn’t have much Exp in these MUs. Also sub to wheels’ YT and stuff
#1220

SWK, i think i said to you at some point that i don’t really know enough on Shin to give a lot of feedback. You’re the guy with her. What i’ve got are more questions than anything…

Regarding Gargos…

I saw you using Shadow Slice a lot off blocked portal punches to get in. Does that work as a punish on block or is it just something where you’re hoping to catch the startup of something on follow up?

Also, i saw maybe midway through the set, you stopped using stationary orbs and moved to using forward orbs. In my mind, i feel like forward orbs are better with the style of Gargos Wheels used (get a life lead, zone the Shin out). Your thoughts?

To that point, i am always curious to know why the relatively few Shin players i watch that encounter zoners do not play more for the throw and utilize the orb on their opponent’s head as much. I feel like that’s overlooked. Is there something about that that makes it unappealing? About the only one i can think of where it’d be a hard no would be Glacius, maybe Kilgore.

I haven’t gone through the Tusk ones yet, wanted to watch those later.

#1221

My personal take on it is that all the Shin’s rely too much on using orb to do setups or to just have something out in neutral. As you say, an orb over the head is actually a very strong threat that must be respected, but Shin’s are too enamored of their own setplay and flying crosses to have learned to effectively exploit that implicit pressure option. Most Shin’s (SWK very much included) immediately call another orb after they throw, so there’s very little exploration in how a throw orb influences neutral and the pressure game overall.

2 Likes
#1222

@TooSWKKI

Watched the Tusk set and wanted to ask some questions to that as well…

In this MU, you seem to hover a lot of meter. And you do not use meter in your combos a lot here, either, unless it’s on a lockout. Your favorite out-of-combo use of it seems to be on Shadow Spirit Slice, and with good reason since it’ll catch jumps and random full screen buttons. I’d wonder your thoughts to using Shadow Shin On Ryo Zan in the same sense. Obviously, not that great with your opponent having meter, but it leaves you super advantaged afterwards for a new kind of potential mixup.

I also want to ask your thoughts on using meter in general. Your play is very geared toward setting up the next mixup off the knockdown, but i don’t get a sense of where Shin’s best use of meter is. Your thoughts?

An on and off thing kinda following that up is that Wheels whiffed a fair number of st HP and st HK at you. On block, your answer was pretty consistent for a DP, spirit slice or some other action that punished him. On whiff, there were times i wished i would’ve seen you slap him with st hp into Shadow Shin On Ryo Zan.

A question. It’s hard to see, but i’m not certain that you use the 1st hit H rekka in the neutral. I know i’ll see you use it off a confirm, but maybe not ever raw. In some of these instances where you missed on whiff punishes with fwd mp or st hp, would a H rekka work better, especially against Tusk who has to suffer some long recover on some of his normals? And it’s gotta have better range than even her st HP.

An observation and question. Frequently, Wheels would find a range where he would run > jump back mp and repeat, looking for you to probably extend into his range. Is a orb off a throw a means of deterring that kind of style?

#1223

I think it’s pretty valuable to throw Gargos and keep the orb there in case you need to get back in (even though it’s not a free in, at least Gargos will have to sometimes not do portal punch to watch for it), but I’m not sure it makes the matchup too much easier. You have to get in the first time to land a throw, and if Gargos knows you want to throw more often, he can jump or tech or play a bit more throw-centric defense. Eventually you’ll get kicked out without an orb and it’s really tough. Gargos also has a great button to anti-air if he predicts correctly (st.HK) and it’s not something you can punish if he does it at a time when you didn’t teleport. It’ll let you walk forward a bit but that’s kind of about it.

I don’t think Shin should be able to get in super easily because she’s very tough to stop up close, but I think the match is pretty hard. It doesn’t help that Wheels is one of KI’s best players at controlling neutral and angles of approach.

As for the other question, no shadow slice (something like 17f startup) is not a punish on blocked portal punch (something like -12). He’s just doing it as a guess in roughly the same type of situation he would have to guess if he had an orb on Gargos’s head. It’s a guess he has to make, but Wheels also let him off the hook a bit by not punishing as hard as he could/should have (you can always just press your punish button during the Shin shadow freeze and you’ll intercept her as she tries to go through you with 0 risk).

#1224

Yeah, my indictment of Shin players and throw orb is more general than specific to this MU or set. Gargos kind of dunks Shin Hisako, and throw orb alone isn’t going to change the underlying dynamics of the fight. I do think the threat has to be there however, because you need Gargos to be antsy on defense and to try to go for things like jumping out or command grabs or things like that. Without using the orb at all Gargos doesn’t have to think too much about what choices to make in neutral - the only thing he has to worry about is just making his way out of the next super jacked-up mixup whenever it happens. That’s a decent sized issue on its own, but it’s not especially taxing mentally, and with Gargos’ instinct in particular he’s got some guaranteed outs eventually anyway.

I think throw orb play is just super underdeveloped right now. There are impacts to having it out, but those dynamics haven’t been explored to anywhere near their potential I don’t think.

#1225

THROW ORB RANT

Opinion incoming. I think throw orb isn’t too great . By taking ASW Legend, LordKnight’s method of breaking down a matchup

" you can break down a match up to essentially four phases:

  • Neutral: When you and your opponent aren’t directly attacking each other. It’s essentially the battle for space control and to gain advantage.
  • Offense: When you are directly attacking the other player, forcing them to block.
  • Defense: When the other player is attacking you directly, forcing you to block.
  • Knockdown: When one player gets to set up offense on a downed opponent"

There are technically 2 knockdown phases but whatever. Also LK’s definition of offense is really pressure

Focusing on Neutral, Offense and Knockdown, making a conscious decision to keep a throw orb on turns shin offense and knockdown game from A+ and like S to like a B and B- and I think the neutral scariness isn’t enough of an improvement to compensate for the damage lost by removing dash as a pressure option and the knockdown awfulness of orb oki or dash oki. The main thing that makes throw orb feel wack is that you can force a move with a regular forward orb anyway and make gambles with something less complicated or buggy as well as being way less costly.

Throw orb is underdeveloped but its in a camp where it can be argued that Shin has to give up a bunch to utilize it so …. :man_shrugging:

Possible improvements vs Gargos

  • Learn ranges where PP is punishable

  • Be trickier with attempts to get in

    • Do walk forward s.slice,attempt to goad out a bad PP
    • Use rekka+whiff cancels as a way to move forward unpredictably
    • dont use wall jump
  • optimize how to deal with instinct.

    • Act like a P4A player trying to deny Awakening
    • Figure out best ways to pressure?
    • ???
  • AA M Air psycho Crusher with slice better

#1226

I don’t think having throw orb out affects Shin’s pressure to anywhere near that degree (her options are not that meaningfully different between the two states, and she still has 2-layer mixups available to her when it’s out), and I think the marginal loss of utility on oki is not dispositive. I can hit you with an A-level mixup too if I’m reasonably smart with my pressure, and some characters’ oki rests entirely on what I’d consider B-class mixups. Forcing people to hold super effed-up knockdown pressure is not the be-all end-all, and I think it’s more than possible to open people up with her more basic options.

#1227

A month and a week later, the cause of the remaining TK problem has been found. They don’t sell XB1 Hit Boxes anymore, so I got the PS4 version and was using JoyToKey to convert the button presses to keyboard keys and used that.

DO NOT use JoyToKey!

It introduces lag in uneven amounts, and your inputs just don’t respond as fast as they should all of the time. I switched to XOutput and now everything feels smoother and more responsive, and I can easily hit TKs reliably. Even Dash-cancelling TKs. Eventually, I’ll install a Brooks Universal Fighting Board.

2 Likes
#1228

Hmm, really? Saving the throw orb means you can’t ever use orb as a cover for a slice, and you can never use forward dash. Those are pretty big parts of why her offense is hard to block. WIthout that, you just block low and react to the slow-ish, very unsafe overhead; Shin will just have to try to dodge shadow counters and use a few plus on block normals to open up. Shin can also use slice to kinda go nuts (and she probably should) but with it never being safe and never really leading to much, I’m not sure I’d say they’re “not meaningfully different”. Forward dash with no throw orb lets you attempt a pretty risk-free cross up that is very safe that leads to a full combo, and the orb cover is huge for converting L slice into a combo where it otherwise wouldn’t.

#1229

I guess I should clarify a bit. I think Shin with no orb has 3-layer pressure, while I think Shin with an orb has 2-layer pressure. The former is obviously stronger than the latter, but I think Shin’s offense is still very solid without the extra shenanigans.

She can still forward dash with throw orb out - it just will always land in front. That still leaves her with a medium speed overhead (you list her fwd dash at 37 frames, but I’m assuming that’s measuring when she hits the ground versus when she can push a button?) that leaves her plus and also carries the empty->low/throw threat. The point to me isn’t that she should never spend her throw orb - it’s that there are times when she should go for more standard pressure to keep it in reserve.

I dunno, I just think it’s not as hard to hit people with Shin as everyone always says. When I was still playing the character I played almost entirely without using the orb for setups, and even against high level opponents I got my openings. Shin with orb is in that realm of “eff it, I can’t block this :man_shrugging:t5:”, but base Shin has good buttons and some pretty nasty and non-obvious frame traps. Against a character who can keep her out reliably, I think getting in and keeping the option to get back in should trump setting up for your next hard-to-blockable.

Maybe I’ll take some time to run with her again for a bit. I think “solid” Shin play is vastly underrated.