So what's next for Raam?

Characters General RAAM
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I’ve seen two sets of his on bass’s channel. one was against aganos the other i don’t remember. I kinda found it… questionable to say the least. Mid screen bear grab to get aganos to jump so steve could fadc, then dash forward shadow emergence to presumably knock him out of the air, but aganos had already landed and he got punished. I dunno, while I see he’s trying to make beargrab put in work with fadcs while throwing his opponent off, it just doesn’t and he ends up spending a lot of meter for not much.

Ill look into those sets again some time but i don’t really think steve will be in many more tournaments, he’s focusing mkx right now ain’t he

Also he said no more tech til kiwc. though that mid combo fadc just seemed kinda wasteful. I think the idea is a less risky pseudo counter break but it just didn’t look great to me

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RAAM reminds me of SF4 Zangief…while he has some trouble with zoners and has limited means of getting in with say only one move that can deal with projectiles in some way when they are in your zone its game over, as well as being a character which i think when used correctly can be potentially unstoppable…just like SF4 gief and Snake eyez

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I’ll check them out too. I’m always looking for good RAAM matches, I think he’s an interesting character to figure out in KI and watching people do just that is fun.

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Coach Steve either didn’t do as well as I’d hoped, or didn’t play, at EVO. I honestly can’t remember. Between the notorious KI stream schedule problems, and my work schedule around then, I’ve got a total blank. However, Coach Steve has gone back to MKX… for shame. No more RAAM from him, I imagine.

@Supermariofan20 Stomps are okay if you’re particularly invested in a counterbreak-centric style. Feel out whether or not they’ll break M Stomp, establish a placement for L Stomp, and try and to bait them into a huge chunk. Otherwise, Stomps are just losing damage and ways into the opponents head. Flipout is good in the corner, especially if you can teach them not to break the first Stomp. If they are finding a central position in your RAAM play, then it pains me to say you are walking with a crutch.

@KagekaAkumu I can’t be bothered to find the quote, but you mention something about KR being his worst tool, and something else about back-forward more than TJ. A couple things: it is important to realize the limited application of KR, and that this doesn’t make it inherently bad. You should be using it mostly as a reaction to midrange fireballs (at roughtly 2.5 spaces, give or take). Yes, you CAN catch jumps with it, and you CAN tick into it, but these are wholly unreliable uses, and of course must be preceded by a “hard read” to even hope for success. I know I posted all this and more in another RAAM thread, but it warrants repetition. When you DO land it, you get your +4 in their face, which should become your house.
With regard to his approach - yes, you will do a lot block-walking. He is a real grappler. I see a lot of pupal RAAM’s complain about his approach and it always boils down to block-walk a lot, then some form of complaint about how KR is too easy to jump. Of course, the latter is not a movement option, it is not a command dash, it is not an approach tool - it is an answer to a specific sort of problem at specific ranges, whose reward for success is an in-road. The thing I NEVER see RAAM’s mention when complaining about his neutral and approach options is FADC.

FOR THE LOVE OF LOCUSTS ALL OF YOU!!! PRACTICE YOUR FADC APPROACHES!!! You can soak a fireball (or a single hit poke) without having to stop and db. It takes practice, but it is GLORIOUS.

The two things I think are “next for RAAM” - which really should be “next for RAAM players” - are improving our setplay (which has sorta begun in this very thread, and will only get better moving forward) - and improving our approach with better use of FADC. The thing about RAAM (and the whole archetype) is that they aren’t meant to have a bajillion neutral options and a to-the-gills kit. They will always struggle from range, and their most powerful tools will always be the mind of the operator. To succeed with a grappler, you have to be willing to accept that you must outthink your opponent.

Regarding his kit, I think RAAM is damn near perfect. We just gotta earn them hugs.

I won’t be able to get around to tech transcription 'til probably early next week. I keep wasting time here (cuz I luvz y’all!), I’ve got jury duty starting tomorrow, and… well… grinding the last week of the Overwatch event before they change prestige XP… yeah… I’m a traitor… soz.

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I see what you mean when you kr isn’t meant as a command dash or approach tool but a way through fireballs. But the issue is a number of fireballs recover before kryll rush will reach them even at fairly close range. Also kan ra’s bugs stick around if you shadow through which getd you close but you have to hold his followup. Though i don’t really know what you mean by 2.5 spaces, is that in terms of the tiles on training room?

On fadc. Excellent tool. Ive only really used it in the sh/jago matchups so i cant really speak for other matches except gargos where fadcing portal punches is a lost cause(wing attack is a good fadc tho)but it’s definitely going to seperate winning from losing against those two. It’s such a hard range to find the place you can absorb a fireball and not get fireballed during the dash. But once it’s found itll probably get a lost easier by jumping after

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Yeah, by “space” I pretty much mean “Jago-sized character length,” or “training room tile.” Of course, this distance isn’t a flatout guarantee of success, and will vary slightly character to character. Sometimes, you’ll have to FAx the run, and finesse your charge/dash cancel timing. And fxck KanRa. That matchup hurts like hell, but every grappler is gonna have a Sim to their Gief. With Gargos, better to block-walk in on PP’s - it’s important to realize that despite being “projectiles” they aren’t functionally disjointed, and hella negative. You get a good step or so before he can even throw another. There is almost enough time for some characters to dash between PP’s (no one is guaranteed a dash here, I’m just using that as an illustration of how negative he is, and how long the startup of PP is).

And, yeah. FADC approach is not easy, but it is effective. A healthy combination of block-walk, n.j, FADC and KR (in range) should make fireballers fear you. It’s a bit of work, but I think that’s always been part of the appeal of the archetype as a whole. There is a measure of personal reward in crushing a zoner with big ol’ hugs because his fireball+uppercut/keepaway game couldn’t assuage the Demon Wall. It just feels better than other wins… at least, in my opinion. I think that counts for something (or, at least, is supposed to).

Also - SF2 Gief doesn’t count for arguments sake because developers didn’t know shxt about the genre they were designing until WAAAY later in the genres life.

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What this means?

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Focus Attack Dash Cancel. It’s a term derived from SF4, used to describe the functionality of RAAM’s 3P.

I don’t often use the proper names of moves. I use easier to remember associatives. Soz for the confusion.

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I would use fake stomp only in situations where st.MK is used as a meaty. You can trick them into reversaling, or if they’re content to block, then command grab them. I wouldn’t use it in stomp situations.

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I have only recently started using it as a meaty. I don’t like it because it’s kind of slow and dangerous to use up close, but if it hits, it’s basically a free grab setup, and it moves him forward pretty far to boot while in neutral.

Another question: which moves him forward further - his s.MK or his f.MK (or are they the same)? I’d look into it myself, but I have to head off to class, so… Yeah.

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You can use it after an mk stomp to try and bait them into timer lockouts to make lk safe but its kinda pointless imo.

But as a meaty fake doesn’t deception last long enough that to use it as a fake would get you reversald anyways? unless its like a slower dp like thunders or raam’s. actually doesn’t sound too bad in a few matchups then. but s mk is such a good meaty that it almost seems kinda wasteful to try and bait when its still kinda risky

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I sort of object to the notion that Fulgore should always dunk RAAM. Yes, that is how it will likely play out, but what’s bugged me about this from moment one is that KI took steps to eliminate as many of those problems as possible instead of just writing off certain characters and matchups. I think it’s a 6.5 to 3.5 right now, up from the 8-2 it was pre-patch. What would it take, in your mind, to get that to a 5-5 given the character archetypes aren’t changing?

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Not infil, but character with a Fireball vs grappler is already tilting the favor heavily against the grappler, it’s just how it is. The most direct way to make it a 5-5 while retaining archetypes would be a “5-5 in favor of fulgore” by ruining fulgore’s defensive options or making raam have safe jumps against 3 frame dps. In that situation fulgore would be able to zone and destroy raam until raam starts his oki, during which fulgore is basically just dead

@DesirousCat3658 i never remember to use the right reply button

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I have issues with the kryll shield because, even holding it, I’ve often been hit by a normal (as in, non-shadow) projectile or single attack and immediately opened up. I’m certain it’s a timing issue on my end, and that I’m getting hit during the startup and/or the recovery, but that doesn’t make it suck for me any less. Even worse, every time I do it, it’s easily blocked. I also have trouble with kryll charge. I hate how slow it is, and I never seem to get in range close enough for the kryll shield shadow cancel to hit… :frowning:

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Well, that’s not exactly a bad thing given that it’s +8 on block, you can frame trap with everything but his slowest buttons. Or you can dash cancel into grab which catches a lot of people.

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I don’t think a character that struggles against runaway will ever be 5-5 with one of the best runaway/zoning characters in the game. I just don’t think it can happen, and if it does, then that means you’re giving Raam a bunch of 7-3s in his favor against other characters who can’t keep him out as well.

When you have a polarizing character like Raam, by necessity, you need to have some bad matchups (both for and against).

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Yeah, it’s a byproduct of gameplay diversity. It’s inevitable for a character like Raam having either favorable or unfavourable MU.

Anyway, KI does a great job making the worst MU of the game winnable for the disadvantaged character.

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Eh, I wouldn’t go that far. They’re not a crutch so much as they’re just a riskier way to go about Raam’s offense. He gets guaranteed hella-ambiguous setups, so why go for the thing that’ll push you full screen if it gets broken?

Like most aspects of KI, I think optimal play with Raam will probably involve a mix of the safer, more setup-heavy play, as well as taking/making the reads on his stomps. Risky does not mean bad - it means risky. Stomp damage is not negligible, and a single correct counter breaker read on one with instinct stocked is just about game. That has uses.

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I did talk about it earlier, but I think it’s good to bring it up again now. Light stomps has one really good thing going for it, and that’s that it gives you a really easy meaty command grab. Additionally, flip outs do not have any reversal buffer to them.

I recorded raam to flip out and meaty grab me and just sat there and did it for 3 minutes. I did everything, mashed backdash, mashed instinct, mashed dp, none of it came out. Hell I even got a video of me going frame by frame of one of them and getting the punch for dp 1 frame before landing and it still not coming out.

So either you can dp a meaty grab or you dont get a reversal buffer for flipouts.

If anybody wants i can also upload the 3 minutes of me just trying to dp after a flipout. But i kinda just want to get it off my computer its almost a gigabyte large

Actually I’m gonna tag @Infilament so he can see it when he’s available because he might have some insight about the mechanics of flip outs

Good a time as any to ask, @TheKeits is this intentional?