Not what “safe” means though. Safe is a pure numbers game. You’re either negative enough on frames to be punished or you’re not. Frame Advantage is a different case. Frame advantage is jago utilizing his +3 from f.hk to lets say jab, and counter hitting his oppnent’s jab since it will start 3 frames later. Being safe is holding back after f.hk and not being able to be hit by anything
There is another frame data for each move if they hit. But since most can be canceled into specials, it doesn’t matter
Understanding frame data for blocking is the most relevant. Let’s see if some examples can help (frame data may not be accurrucate, but let’s take them as true for this example)
-Aganos ruin is -60 on block. That means that if you block it, you have 60 frames to do anything you want. You could use a heavy into opener for example. Aganos has 60 frames of recovery here, so he must wait until it ends.
-Shadow Jago surged divekick is +8 on block. This means that if you block it, Shago has 8 frames to do whatever he wants. For example, he could use a move that has 10 frames of startup, and you still can’t do any normal attack that beats it, since 8/10 of the starting frames of the move, you are at disadvantage, so when you have the control of your character, he will hit you in 2 frames. If you press a light(5 frames), his move will hit you during your startup frames
The key info here is the amount of time you and your opponent have. Everytime someone says “x move is -8 on block”, means that the attacker will be 8 frames in disadvantage from his opponent, so he will be vulnerable to moves with faster startup than 8 frames
This doesn’t talk about if his opponent may or not punish him. Only about if he CAN OR NOT. The decision of making it or not is another thing
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Is there an actual reason to be this pedantic? Besides safe doesn’t mean invincible. It means safe. Focusing on the meaning because it’s not 100% how you want it instead of actually using the ideas to improve will get you no where
(Before it was withdrawn it said “but what if he throws your or does a low and so on”)
I find it quite odd that the term “safe” is used for the attacker. I would think that, generally speaking, it would be applied to the defender instead, because they’re the ones trying not to get hit.
The defender now has advantage which is better than safe.
If you’ve been here for a year how is it you’re arguing about this.
Make a seperate thread or something this one is getting super derailed
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I thought a majority of this was actually pretty much day one stuff, what with the internet and all. I’ve honestly never considered that perspective, aside from absolutely brand-new-to-fighting-games players. Huh.[quote=“GalacticGeek, post:83, topic:15681”]
blocking post f.HK, you’re never truly “safe” because there’s no guarantee that your opponent won’t decide to throw you, or hit low with their next attack,
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One - blocking post f.HK is one of those “mistakes” that it is foolish to assume the opponent will make. If you catch them blocking after you block their f.HK, you can pretty much count on them being new. More likely would be continued pressure or a tick-throw.
Two - blocking low shouldn’t matter. The golden rule of defense is default crouch-block, react to the overhead. Some characters, like Arbiter, may call for an adjustment to standard defensive practices, but more often than not you should db. to block.
EDIT: Gee whiz, I type slow.
I know you said they were inaccurate, but this is giving me flashbacks to a bajillion “SHAGO OP PLZ REMOOV” threads. Let the record indicate that Shago’s Sg.Divekick is -3.
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I thought Jago had the advantage with is +3 f.HK…
Didn’t see we were talking Jago. Too many responses all over this thread.
He has. @SithLordEDP may be talking about something else. The people posting really fast doesn’t help to follow the conversation.
Summarize:
-If an attack is -X on block, after blocking it, defender has X frames of advantage(a -20 on block means that the defender has 20 frames of advantage
-If an attack is 0 on block, after blocking it, both attacker and defender are equal. They are in neutral
-If an attack is +Y on block, after blocking it, the attacker has Y advantage(a +20 on block means that the attacker has 20 frames of advantage)
WHAT TO DO with that frame advantage or disadvantage its up to the player.
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I was hoping someone wouldn’t reply to that, as I realized my mistake in posting it and had it removed, but since you responded to it…
I don’t quite understand your 1st paragraph - I was referring to the person blocking against the f.HK AND subsequent attack, not that the attacker would block after his f.HK - why would he do that if he has the advantage?
In regards to your 2nd paragraph, I know this, but still get punished for blocking low quite often because I have not yet developed the speed/awareness/habit to change my block when an overhead actually occurs.
Again, I don’t understand because you’re not using specific examples. I don’t know why you think translating it into a mathematical formula is going to help me…
I put you examples in a previous post
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People are posting fast - I missed that post entirely. Give me a sec to read it over…
Ah, soz, I misunderstood. In this situation, it goes without saying that the defender isn’t safe - the defender is disadvantaged. Their options are to block the next button and go from there, tech a throw if they sense a throw coming, or b/n.j and hope for the best (this is a more common option vs. command grab characters, of course).
And, no worries to your second point. Reaction blocking overheads is a skill one must develop, and not necessarily an easy one. I have sort of poor reactions myself (and, if I’m being honest, poor thoughtspeed). But, if you’re always trying to predict the overhead, you may open yourself up to commonplace lows a bit too frequently.
EDIT: @Dayv0!!! Man!!! Twice!? My spine is tingling! My brain is melting! SHAGO SOOOO OP AF LIEK TOOOO BROKE!!1!!!1!
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I was fine until I got to this part - can you clarify it for me?
Also, either I’m truly confused or you guys are giving me examples where something being negative is both good and bad (depending on the example given) with the same being true if it’s plus. This, I think, is the context I’m not getting… Is it because what’s negative for 1 player is positive for the other? This is why I hate the whole plus/minus stuff…
It’d take a lot of work, but could someone show me a visual example, kind of like with what @Infilament does with his shadow move breaker bars? You could show me the advantage by having a slider @60fps with marked segments compared next to another to see which is safer and/or faster…
I feel like visual examples would make the whole concept easier to explain.
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A move negative on block is always bad for who performed it, since he is in that exactly amount of frames of recovery over the player who blocked it.
-8 on block: Defense moves 8 frames sooner
+8 on block: offense moves 8 frames sooner
As offense, you don’t want to perform negative moves, since when your opponent blocks them, it’s their turn to act, since they move sooner than you
remember when this was a raam thread
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I just edited this into my last post and agree.