He’s also the character with a hideously easy to punish punishable light opener. Light decimation has for some reason 11 frames more recovery than the other strengths. It’s what causes that awkward pause that makes it really really clear that you’re in a punishable state no matter what level. i actually find it really frustrating because itd let him have a significantly better negative frame trap game like jagos windkicks where you have to distinguish the version based on the startup not he recovery. Then again people are already really good about just backdashing and no one uses heavy windkick randomly so i dunno. It just feels awful actually using light cominance. I get he’s a grappler so he’s not supposed to depend on fishing for openers with it but can’t its recovery be consistent with his other moves? its like spinal’s divekick pre buff it’s just clunky and annoying
But on shadow dominance, can he punish -1 moves? because it’s one of those things where if theyre not already in prejump it’ll grab them, and they can’t start jumping until theyve fully recovered so they’d get grabbed right?
Well, the reasoning behind that is limiting Raam acces to the combo system. He can combo any normal into L decimation, but only heavies into M decimation. The objective is only using it on hit confirms, never for preassure. I don’t use it unless I’m sure it will connect. I barely use M or L attacks to start combos. I prefer confirm it from a Heavy, and I use M and H decimation for setting up frame traps
You’re not really supposed to use light stab unless you know for sure it’s gonna hit. Just play the “frame trap or blockstring or grab” game with the medium and heavy versions. It might seem counterintuitive to not be trying to open up a combo but that’s how raam rolls.
I’ve never been an expert when it comes to frame data. At best, I know startup, active, and recovery frames and understand what that means when 1 move’s s/a/r frames are compared to that of another. So, I can see which of 2 moves starts up faster, which becomes active 1st, and which recovery is more punishable. However, the moment someone starts throwing positive and negatives into the mix, regardless of whether it’s on hit or block, then my my mind goes, “say what now!?” I’ve had multiple people try to explain it to me, and nobody has been successful enough to get it to really stick. When someone says such and such is -1 on block, for example, I can only guess at what that means number-wise (I know it happens during a block, of course) and can usually figure out if a move is safe/unsafe based upon how others talk about or react towards it.
I think if light decimation was safe he’d be pretty silly. Right now in order to get a grounded combo, he has to fish with slower buttons or slower decimations, or else risk being punished. Probably how a grappler should be. He can still fish with light decimation if he has one bar, though (kryll cancel backdash).
I’m completely fine with it being -7, that’s understandable since he’s not really supposed to use it. It’s best used for punishes against stuff like shago slides to get into the combo system instead of grabbing and other decimations are better anyways.
My gripe is how its recovery is also significantly longer. It feels like an eternity watching raam slowly reel back giving your opponent an age to react. It feels weird complaining that a sixth of a second feels so long but it’s 50% slower to recover and it feels awful. I’ll take my opponent punishing me for making the wrong assumption that it would hit, but giving then what feels like forever to do so frustrates me a lot
I don’t want it safe, i want a change similar to what spinal got to his divekick without the change to actual frame advantage. so a reduction in both blockstun and recovery
This is what I’m talking about right here. I don’t know what this means! I don’t have context. What’s -7!? -7 to what!? Is that on hit or block or just in general? Is it safe!? Unsafe!? What’s being subtracted and from what? I DON’T KNOW!!!
Someone being positive or negative just refers to who recovers first, after all the block stun and recovery and all that has worn off. It is the “end result” of a blocked move. It is the most important number.
If my st.HK is -1 on block, that means after everything is said and done, I get control of my character back 1 frame after you. You get to act 1 frame first. If we press buttons that have the same startup, yours will win because it hits me 1 frame before mine can hit you.
But (outside of Raam’s shadow grab), no move starts UP in 1 frame. That means if I choose to just block, and you press your fast button that would beat everything, I will be able to successfully block.
But imagine a move that is -20 on block. That means you get to act 20 frames before I can. If you press a button that is faster than 20 frames of startup, you will hit me before I get control of my character back. You have “punished” me. There is nothing I can do to stop you from hitting me, because I don’t have control of my character.
For the most part, -5 is the threshold between something being unsafe and not, because everybody has a 5 frame light attack. There are times when -5 will be unpunishable because of range and stuff, but in general, -5 is where stuff starts being punished. Blocked DPs are wildly unsafe (usually in the -30 range), so you can press any button to punish them.
Something like Raam’s light decimation being -7 (is it really only -7? I thought it was -10 or something) means that you can press any 7 frame button (or faster) to get a guaranteed punish on Raam (so… that would mean all light attacks and most medium attacks). The “punishment” message will show up. Raam cannot avoid being hit.
It’s either -7 or -9 I can’t remember, but it’s in the single digits. What makes it so easy to punish is that it has 33 frames of recovery while medium has 22 and heavy has 20. If it was -7/9 and had like 24 frames of recovery it’d probably feel less awful
Still confused, I think. So, what your saying is that if an attack is negative, that only applies to when an attack is blocked and during its recovery, and that even though it applies to the move itself, it’s the defender who may get the advantage as the result of it?
What if an attack hits.? What does it mean then? I’ve seen “on hit” used before too.
Think of it this way, if player A attacks player B with an attack, the frame player B recovers from either blockstun or hitstun is listed as frame 0. If player A recovers before player B then the number of frames is listed as +. If player A recovers after player B then the number of frames is listed as -.
The thing that makes me nervous about this is that it would be really, really difficult to tell which is the L version quickly while fighting Raam, so you might not try to punish it because you can’t tell what version it is. I would be fine with that if there was another super clear way to tell what version it is, but right now the best way for me to tell is to look at the long recovery.
That didn’t help - it’s all just mumbled jargon in my head. You need to break it down and put it into simplest terms for me here, not use the “lingo” that confuses me so… Try giving me a specific example, using simple addition and subtraction as well as something I can actually look up rather than attempt to imagine in a broader, more vague sense like with what you just gave.
When it comes to high school math, I never progressed passed functions (the function of x is to the function of y, for example)…
Yes, moves have different numbers on block and on hit. So a move that is -2 on block might be +10 on hit or something.
In general, you only really care about the “on hit” number if you’re trying to construct combos. If you are worried about what moves are good to use in pressure, then you care mostly about the “on block” number, because that will describe what happens to you when your pressure doesn’t connect.
Being “plus on block” (ie, some number greater than 0) is really good. It means, despite your move being blocked, YOU get to still attack before your opponent. That means your offense doesn’t have to end. Jago’s fwd+HK is +3 on block, for example. If you block this move, you are still “stuck”, because I can press another button and you have no choice but to sit there and take it. If you try to press a button, you will lose, because you are always acting 3 frames behind me. I will pick a suitably fast button and smack you in the face for trying.
Well to be fair this is ki where theres already a bit of ambiguous stuff, but raam being so dangerous up close is definitely cause for concern giving him something like this. I point to jago’s windkick a lot for this as decimation is kind of a reverse windkick but raam isn’t jago obviously so it’s a different case. I do think there it’s the best way to make light not feel awful but it’s probably a numbers game to find the sweet spot
This kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier, but what if my opponent doesn’t capitalize on that +3 f.HK that Jago has? Sure, it may be safe for him to do, but if doesn’t put in a fast enough move (or anything really), then the opportunity is potentially wasted.
Sure, it Is safe in a skilled player’s hands, but the truth is that the kind of knowledge you guys are spouting out on a daily basis is truly the cream of the crop. The vast majority of players won’t understand it, or only understand a small part of it, so they don’t take advantage of it. In my experience, players DO make mistakes, and do so often (which is why I so often take it into consideration as part of the big picture even though it may not be truly relevant or isolating the variables in the process).
It’s the difference between a legion of high school kids (those still learning, e.g., newer or less-inexperienced players), college-level (higher-level understanding, e.g., me and others like me), and then there are the professionals or doctorate-level adults (anyone here who intimately knows FGs, its lingo, and frame data).
If I put an apple on the table and say “that apple is edible”, but then you walk by and don’t eat it, is the apple suddenly not edible?
Bad players will make mistakes and not take advantage of Jago’s +3 on block, or will not punish some -8 on block moves, but that doesn’t change the base properties of the move.
The idea is to communicate these concepts so that you will play better. Maybe if you start punishing moves you didn’t realize were -8, you will win more matches.
Like was said earlier in the thread you shouldn’t play under the assumption your opponent is going to make those mistakes. Its better to assume they’re going to play perfectly and then start capitalizing on any mistakes you see than to get hit several times before you realize they’re not making mistakes.
