Ay Infil, I’ve used your setups to really good extent and found a few like with back throw, but all the videos i see of other raams or playing mirrors it feels like they turbo their mk button after grabs.
Is raam falling into an arbiter problem where stomps are “good enough” like gun loop was “good enough” so people don’t try to figure out setups?
Stomps are really good obviously, I think in part because its near impossible to reversal after a flip out, but seeing people mash medium stomps after grabs to get to me and otg hurts me on the inside.
I dunno why you think stomps are “really good”… I think they’re okay, but being broken (and not being really able to capitalize on a lockout for anything significant) sends you full screen, and I’m not convinced your reward is going to vault Raam to the top of the tier list.
Arbiter’s gun loop was a lot more than “good enough”, it was always the best way to spend his bullets. They were instant full screen footsies buttons that either closed the gap or increased the gap (depending on how you jumped) and the startup of jumping looks a lot like his overhead, so it lets him get away with more overheads - people get trained to learn that Arbiter jumping means they’re going to get shot at, so they just let him get plus frames from overhead instead of getting hit by the bullet combo.
I don’t see this type of “always the best action” with Raam’s stomps. I think people are only using stomps because they don’t know about the other set play options (or they can’t execute them effectively enough), and doing stomps is better than doing no mixup at all. After all, learning and optimizing your set play is hard. Pressing one button for a stomp mixup is easy, so people just do what’s easiest most of the time.
Stomps still have their place, though. Heavy command grab doesn’t give you set play, so you can use it there as a mixup between a meaty or a reset. I just think you should take the real mixup when you land light/shadow grab.
i say stomps are good because near as i can tell flip out leaves the defender with jump or block because you dont get a buffer for reversals, and if there is one it’s minimal. You’re 50/50ing yourself still which is my biggest gripe with raam but the flip out intricacy i think is making it work more than it should because people are trying to do things that dont work like trying to reversal dp without a buffer.
And i wasn’t saying that stomps are as good as gun loop. I meant people depend on it in a similar fashion, always doing damage ender gunloop instead of finding set play off his other enders
On a completely different tech note, shadow command grab ender might be worth using even if it’s not level 4 ender because it gives the same mixup as catching them with it outside a combo.
Gonna agree with infil here. Before i started my ki break i was already experimenting with his options outside the stomps. He’s got some pretty nasty stuff, cross ups that still land raam infront, set ups that hit either behind or infront without any noticeable difference, safe jumps, jump ins that actually beat DPs, etc. And if they block your mix up you can still put them into the same hit or throw guess you’d get off the flip out. Stomps may get you decent mileage but they are nowhere near “good enough” when you actually look at what else he has.
That’s what I’ve been doing for a while now, but when i see other raams they just do stomps. People keep talking about “what else he has” but I haven’t seen anybody make any suggestions for setups or the like. Does there need to be a dedicated thread or something for it? I dunno, and I hope people aren’t keeping things to themselves because that’d be dissapointing.
Raam is a simple character,both to understand and use, but mastering him is really hard and needs a mindset very different from the rest of the characters.
We may have to wait for a godlike Raam specialist, but when it arrives, it will be glorious
I think all the character sub-forums have tech threads, but if Raam doesn’t have one, then by all means make it!
By and large, I think Raam players do stomps because it’s simple and it’s straightforward. And I’d say the lack of significant tech/setup discussions on the forums is probably just because most of the KI forum users don’t really “do” tech for the most part, and of those that do, maybe only two or three probably even play Raam.
Imo the problem with tech threads is that it’s hard to keep track once it starts getting a lot of posts. Then again no ones posted in it for a month so i dunno if that’ll ever become an issue. Would be nice if someone could sticky at least something to make them easier for people to see if theyre lookin for tech or setups or anything
Well, I’ve exhausted my options in trying to find new possibilities for RAAM with my limited ability. I don’t know how to improve my game play with him anymore.
Foward grabs, empty grabs, grabs on the back, cross up, stomps, d.LP+Light grab. It’s not enough some times. The fake stomp and kryll shield cancels requires some skills that I’m unable to develop, also there are so few videos of RAAM players that’s hard to find some thing new.
ATM I really feel that I’ve reached my limit learning RAAM.
@kagekaakumu said it - he said it’s never been throw invincible, and @thefawz said something similar as well. By that logic, you could tech it, which simply isn’t true.
That’s not what throw invincibility means. Not being throw invincible simply means if your opponent does a throw then it’ll connect during raams start up frames. Thunder, for example, is throw invincible during his command grab, so if you try to throw him at any point during his command grab it’ll whiff.
It is not throw invincibility that makes a command grab untechable. It is a standard property of command grabs to be untechable. That is what sets them apart from throws, and makes the grappler archetype possible. The techable property applied to a command grab is the exception, not the rule - nor are command grabs always throw invincible. While this is often the case, there is room for exceptions.
Throw invincibility has nothing to do with teching throws. Please [don’t do that thing where you] try and rope people into debating your misunderstandings of staple mechanics and jargon.
First, I like your explanation better than Sith’s version - it explained exactly what I needed to know and I appreciate that. Secondly, however, you didn’t need to go all negative by calling my misunderstanding obtuse - it’s exactly that kind of attitude that will drive away people who legitimately don’t understand because of how unfriendly you come off as. Don’t do that! It’s that part that I certainly don’t appreciate… It was wholly unnecessary, and in that regard, @SithLordEDP’s version was better than yours.
If you were ever to become a medical doctor, I’m sure your bedside manner would be horrendous! …because that hurt.
This coming from the guy whose first response was “sounds like you’re asking for buffs.” You can’t be rude and then preach “everyone needs to be positive” and then turn right around and be rude again
That wasn’t being rude. It was a blank absolutely neutral statement stating the obvious! Besides, even if it was, why would anyone else want to stoop to that level? That’s just a lose-lose for everyone, since it means nobody’s taking the higher road or turning the other cheek. At that point, everyone’s just despicable and rotten. Why go there?
On a side note, I tag people as a courtesy. I should stop doing that as it often invites people to openly attack and belittle me.
It hurts me so much to know you prefer someone else over me. What ever shall I do?
My bedside manner is atrocious. I have little patience for your particular flavor of antics. I can never tell when you are being genuine in your misunderstanding, or are just looking to derail a thread for attention. I don’t address every poster with the same lack of patience I address you with. Further, if someone is deterred from knowledge because the provider wasn’t all sunshine, that’s really more their loss than mine. If I were a doctor…
@KagekaAkumu I’ll lab and transcribe some stuff tomorrow. I’m really not a fan of duplicate tech threads though. Yeah, threads get cluttered as they get longer (because OP’s rarely, if ever, update), but dividing a tech thread into A and B only makes tech that much harder to find, so I guess I’ll post in both, but I’d rather whomever authored the original(s) to just keep them updated… Soz for the off-topic.
In regards to FG terms and mechanics, I personally think the whole thing is rather too bureaucratic for my tastes. There’s too much jargon that is, IMO, unnecessary.
For example, why use throw invincible? Why not just say can’t be thrown? It’s simple, to the point, easier to understand, and even uses fewer letters and syllables.
With that in mind, and to get back on topic, if you still can’t throw him during the move, even though it’s not throw invincible, does it really matter? I think it doesn’t since the result is still the same.
