Should Gargos have a short time duration for another Izzac and Dretch to be summoned after one of them is destroyed? To show this there could be a small image of Izzac and Dretch above gargos’s meter, when they are available they will be in full color but say after summoning Izzac and having him die his image would be grayed out for a certain amount of time, same goes for Dretch. This would reward players for destroying the minions by giving them a time period where they can play without them making them less insanely oppressing. If you guys have any more ideas on balancing minions please share.
I think Gargos’ portal punch should not generate meter to summon them.
I can agree with reduced but not gaining any is too brutal.
They could ban Hollywood Sleep from competing. That would fix Gargos.
Seriously, wtf? Stop this. Everyone stop this.
Sleep used to win everything, then his character got hit with nerfs, and everyone called him out as a fraud because they thought he could only win with OP characters. But for Season 3, he used a character no one else was using, and a character who only recently was released to win EVO. The man is good. Leave it at that.
Threads like this are insulting. How about some of YOU go play Gargos, and win some First-to-ten sets against some pros, then come back, and THEN tell me if he is OP?
Never said anything about sleep he did great nothing against him he completely earned it. However many players think gargos does need some balance and I think the issues are mostly around the minions and how the currently work (they just come out too often imo). Anyways the thread is a discussion on minion balancing, not crapping on sleeps hard work.
I have to agree with this completely. Gargos wins one high profile match and people are already in. It’s like when Nicky started winning with Fulgore and the world exploded with demands for Fulgore nerfs. People need to chill.
I was really rooting for Bass - he’s such a chill guy and he never seems to get pulled in to all the drama. But Gargos did not win EVO, Sleep did. The guy is really damn good at the game and he knows how to use those setups - and especially how to use Gargos himself to keep up the pressure that makes the minions effective. The dude was busy it wasn’t just a “free” win once those minions came out.
I go online and I don’t see an army of OP Gargos players ruining the competitive balance with their minions.
People have been asking for minion balance changes before Sleep won the EVO tournament.
Anyways, this thread isn’t about sleep winning EVO, it’s about making Gargos’ more balanced.
And like I’m saying, I think Gargos’ should not gain meter easily from his portal punches since they can be used anywhere on screen.
To be fair people thought Fulgore needed balance adjustments far before Nicky started doing amazing with him, people simply got louder about it after.
This IS crapping on Sleeps work.
Before this, there were 0, or maybe 1 thread calling for nerfs. Gargos was not even SEEN in high-level play, and only a couple of pros were considered threats online. But 1 good-looking win at EVO, and now the nerf threads start rolling in? Stop.
Also, The most popular nerf suggested is that Gargos should not gain as much meter for Portal punches. But thats the ONE move Sleep used the least.
Take into consideration how other characters in the game can handle his safe portal punches. Specifically Raam. AND AGAIN, nobody was mentioning Sleep besides you.
Take into consideration how FU**ED Gargos is when he gets cornered by other characters. Specifically RAAM. That’s called balance.
If you want to be good, you have to ESCAPE your bad situations and hold on to your good ones.
That’s fine, I’m not going to argue that point - although the timing is maybe more than a coincidence?
Regardless, I think Gargos with two minions out is SUPPOSED to be a tough, uphill battle. I have played some Gargos and I can tell you it isn’t free to get those minions out. The people who can pull it off are working pretty hard to do it and then they can’t just go ham because minions are out.
The balance in this case is your opportunity to make Gargos waste meter on other things and prevent him from bringing out minions.
@KingOnimaru yes, there is always someone calling for anything at any given time. But Fulgore was nerfed over and over again since his S1 reveal and the general consensus was always “Why are they doing that, Fulgore isn’t that good?” Right up until Nicky started winning. It was night and day in terms of general awareness. People were on here and in twitch saying you couldn’t win without a pocket Fulgore and that Fulgore would win EVO etc. So, let’s count the Fulgore’s in top 8. Actually, more on topic, let’s count the Gargos’s in Top 8.
If we are not going to base the balance adjustments on tournament performance (which I can totally get behind) then we would need to look at what is happening online. Admittedly, I have been travelling a lot and online less, but I rarely see a Gargos online abusing minions. So, I’m just not sure there’s good reason to fix this.
Yeah but he siphons meter from other people and can get shadow from a nice zoning range, and once he has two minions out it’s hard to keep up without messing up at least once. And I’m not saying remove his minions at all. I think he’s fine the way he is besides the fact that his safe long range can get him the shadow meter to get even safer.
His opponent gets meter, too. Use it properly early on, and you will get your perfect positioning.
Im done with this.
So you’re saying Gargos is totally 100% fine the way he is?
He doesn’t even have to get within melee range to start gaining meter for setups.
Ask any pro player if he should get nerfed or not. I guarantee a lot of them will say "yes"
I must disagree on the Fulgore thing, from what I’ve understood most of the competitive community thought his combined toolset was arguably the best in the game, the reason we didn’t see him appear a lot in top 8s was simply due to his high execution barrier and mental barrier to using all those tools to their potential. Nicky has arguably brought these thoughts on Fulgore to the casual limelight hence the voices crying for a Fulgore nerf becoming louder. Or at least this seems to be what I’ve observed.
Lol come the hell on, are you kidding with this? No one who plays the game at a high level, and I mean NO ONE, in their right mind, will say that gargos is OP. I’d say no one even considers him top tier at all, actually.
There’s nothing broken or OP about him. It’s just the way he works. He has crap defense, and not so awesome tools in the mid range, and he utterly dies to good oki. He has decent movement and good evasive options (although his walk speed is trash and his backdash isn’t great, so upclose he suffers movement-wise), he has good control tools at full screen (but not at midscreen, where his portal punches become a gamble and his other tools are all unsafe) and he has good tools upclose for oki (but not for pressure, as his only safe special is reckoning, and even that is only arguably safe, as it’s really easy to get punished for any action after it other than a back jump by a great part of the cast, and even the back jump becomes very unsafe if predicted).
If he didn’t have his minions he would be pretty weak, if you ask me, and this is very well represented in matches, where players with even only decent MU knowledge usually dominate the match until the minions come out.
One minion is pretty easy to deal with, most of the time. Two minions is where it gets really hard, and it’s his option to have this that makes him competitive and really dangerous. It’s also an option that demands a setup and a lot of resources. If your opponent gets to two minions, he either deserves it for playing his cards right, or you really messed up and you deserve to lose for it.
To close: why nerf someone who isn’t broken or OP or even considered top tier?
Yeah but thats the thing about Gargos, is he is in melee range against a Sabrewulf or any other rashdown character he cant make to much because his defense is the worst in the game, so how is he suposed to get meter in that situation, besides get rekt until get one meter?
Then add the fact that protect those minions is not easy and they are not free, they cost one bar each, maybe a reduction in the meter that the minions can get would be logic (they can get a lot) but thats the only logic nerf that i could agree with you.
By the way i believe that any pro player would agree in the fact that he is op.
No pro player will say Gargos is op. They will however say that minions are cheap and gimmicky.
I would say that its more about them being braindead than anything, also not to mention with how fast you build meter in the game gargos is almost always going to have a meter for a minion which is why I suggested what I did in the OP.