Shadow trailbailzer inconsistency

Hi guys ,

i have a problem with cinder anytime i wakeup with shadow trailblazer i am thrown out of it and don’t know why since the dojo teaches new players that shadow beats throws. i would like to know if anyone has experienced it and if you have any tips to deal with it


phhhphhhhhh! EVERYTIME you play CPU on hard or above difficulty you will be thrown out of every shadow move! Ive been saying this all year.
It drives me nuts! But it is what it is…I just stopped using them against the CPU


thats what i thought until i played against a guy using jago online and i woke up with shadow trailblazer and he just threw me out of it

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Don’t feel bad - I get thrown out of shadow ruin on wakeup as Aganos all of the time… :sweat:

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Yea I just always mash grab when I use shadow trailblazer to be safe lol


Not Cinder’s. Cinder’s moves will get beaten out by other moves. That’s just how it is.

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In the dojo it teaches you to use shadow wind kick to avoid a throw because it is throw invulnerable, not because shadows automatically beat throws. Some moves have certain invulnerabilities which can be discovered by going into dojo mode or a replay and turning on display hitboxes: a normal player model will have a blue box outline covering their body and this box signifies throw vulnerability.

Universal ways to avoid throws include backdashing, jumping (although the blue box will remain as you can still be hit by air throws) and throw and fully invulnerable moves. For cinder I think your best option is DP to avoid a throw. You could find some use with the heavy trailblazer as it takes you airborne, although I don’t know how early you leave the ground or if it has pre-jump frames (frames in which you are counted as airborne for throws but will get hit by an attack grounded rather than get juggled - this is what lets Aganos sometimes get hit for a combo even though he has chunks).

Aganos’ shadow ruin has hyper armour and projectile invulnerability but loses to throws like other armoured attacks. However shadow pulverize (the arm spin) has throw invulnerability so you have a kind of 50/50 on wakeup as to which option you can do.

One final thing to note is that Hisako’s possession attack where she sucks you in counts as an “unblockable with a throw component” (wordy, but the best way I can describe it). This means that it isn’t technically a grab and so will avoid throw invulnerability but doesn’t count as a hit either and so will ignore armour, which means that some characters, in particular Aganos and Glacius, have no active defence against this attack, and must instead resort to the passive method of avoiding this brand of unblockable attack: jumping. Like the other unblockable of this type (as opposed to the charged hits Sabrewulf, Orchid and Maya have), Glacius’ shatter, possession cannot hit opponents who are either airborne or in pre-jump frames.

Didn’t Keits explain in the Cinder reveal stream that Cinder’s moves have lower priority than others?

it’s in the 32:19 mark, they start talking about how normals beat Trailblazer

with normals yes , with shadows is a different thing tho.

okay no shadow trailblazers during wake up

I’ve been trying to throw Cinder our of his Shadow trailblazer just now as a test…and it wont work. Yet the CPU can throw anyone and every shadow move every time you throw one at it.

And to really top it off…CPU Cinder just double Ultra’ed me LOL

@TheKeits Why does the CPU throw all Shadow moves so consistently? I’m just curious.

It works. People have done it to me online.

I under stand that it works, of course it does, the CPU does it every time you use it as an opener… I’ve done it 1 other time…but it does not work consistently. No where near as consistent as the CPU…which is 99% consistent. Human shadow throw consistency is about 3%…maybe on a good day.

You can also just open the command list and go to any move, and it will tell you if it has specific invulnerabilities.

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Not just ANY move. A lot of the normals aren’t listed there. I’ve asked why this is in the suggestions forum and never got a response - I’d still like 1, @TheKeits.

An explanation of what exactly? Normal moves are just simple button presses. We only list command normals and specials in those command list pages because outside of ‘weird’ normals, they are very self explanatory.


But what’s the frame data (and other additional info) on said normals? That’s what I’d like to see, but can’t. For example, I can’t see just how fast the startup, active, and recovery frames of Aganos’ b+LP finger flick is (as well as many others)…

Then you just turn on “Attack Data” or whatever it’s called. Aganos’ frame data isn’t all correct (and/or doesn’t update based on chunk level), but it at least gives some frame of reference. Back+LP should be in the command list since it’s a command normal, but you can see it in the attack data anyway, so it’s no big deal if it isn’t in there.

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I’ve never been able to understand the info under the attack data option - I might as well be trying to interpret what Glacius is trying to say. The data never seems to change how I expect it to, particularly where the damage numbers are concerned (for example, I’ll do a combo that does 55% damage on the screen’s normal pop-up, but the data will show something entirely different on that table), so I never use it.

Attack data is pretty easy to read. Let us know what you don’t understand and we’ll clarify it for you.

The damage numbers in attack data aren’t based on %, like reported on screen when you do a combo, instead they are “raw” damage numbers. Each character has 360 health in a health bar (except ARIA, she has 240 as expected), so an attack that does 36 damage points does 10%. The number in brackets after it is the damage scaling; you’ll notice that the first attack you do has a damage bonus of 200% (I think) applied to it, as per the “single hits do more damage” S2 change, and then all hits in a combo will have some percentage under 100% as the combo gets longer. So if you see 10 (50%), that means the attack did 10 points of raw damage (10/360 = about 3%), but that is only 50% of what it normally would do… if you had used it at a different point in the combo, maybe it would have done more or less. The KI damage numbers also report total damage for the combo you did (so you can compare damages for, say, counter breaker combos), as well as the damage number for JUST the last attack in the combo. These are on two separate lines.

The frame data is reported as startup / amount of adv on hit / amount of adv on block (if I remember correctly, not near my Xbox atm) on one of the bottom lines of the attack data window.

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