Rash is nowhere S Tier. He is good but he is - on block nearly all stuff. He is safe yes but he gets pressured everytime you block his grounded stuff.
Fulgore, Jago, Omen, Arbiter and Glacius are Top Tier candidates for me.
Rash is nowhere S Tier. He is good but he is - on block nearly all stuff. He is safe yes but he gets pressured everytime you block his grounded stuff.
Fulgore, Jago, Omen, Arbiter and Glacius are Top Tier candidates for me.
ALL im sure is that Shago is a low tier character.
Some characters I have given an explanation for their placements (could not fit all) and I am really wanting to hear feedback.. Thanks
First, I would rate characters only in A+, A, and B+, being A+ the most dominant characters, A the majority of the cast, and B+ characters that have a major flawn or something that pushes them down but still any character is capable to win any MU.
Second, if I try to place characters in your tier list, I would put Thunder very much higher, Rash, Cinder and Mira are(probably Glacius too) top, Spinal itās really good but not top, Aganos is not the worst character(none is, I mean he doesnāt deserve a unique tier for him alone), Arbiter itās good but not that good, I would put him a bit lower, and Itās a bit soon to place Gargos there.
I think thunder is high B low A tier his damage nerfs on the shammamish seriously reduced his threat level (IMO) and his lack of appearances of thunders in high level/ tournaments can make his position on the tier list lower
Rash has never been seen in high level or any tournaments as far as I am concerned as well as him not really having any favorable matchups (6-4) or above, Cinder also has some bad match ups like Fulgore, Omen and ARIA (me thinks) Mira although having crazy damage, is way to risky to be considered top if she slips up once she is done (also she has few wakeup options) Glacius I think can be topā¦but yet again he is not seen often at high level [quote=āDayv0, post:84, topic:8935ā]
Aganos is not the worst character
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Aganos I think has really bad MUās I think Fulgore/ Glacius/ Omen/ Spinal - Aganos is 7-3 (not in his favor) for all. (Maybe 8-2 with Kan-ra) Also he is never seen in high level the ones above are not in the 7-3 category like Hisako, T.J or Thunder since at worst they have is 4-6 match ups (e.g. Hisako - Fulgore)
Arby I think won a tournament and is one of the most popular characters in high level playā¦he has really good normals, great pressure and if he uses his resource well he can be a nightmare.
Spinal is a lot like Fulgore and in season 2 was considerably better, now they are more on the same level and both work similarly with having to rely on resource but are still very strong without themā¦Spinal has some of if not the best mix ups in the game (IMO) he like fulgore are crazy good and he is still a top seed (IMO)
Gargos I had to put in and yeah to me he is very good and I think may be higher tier later on
Iām anti-nerfš but totally open to rebuff the lacking ones. Like kan ra, wulf, and sadira and maybe others idk.
Just for reequilibrate it.
Tier list are not āpopularity basedā. There are characters that can be high tier but have low representation. Until Rico won Evo, there was a lot people claiming Fulgore was low tier due not winning any major. And Fulgore was a monster in S2, probably the best character.
Also, IMO, the worst MU in this game its a 6-4, never more.
Gonna say this with small mounth, but the bad defense of Gargos could be a problem to place him higher
Kan-Ra itās definetively not a 8-2, its a really even match. If Aganos knocks him down without sand, Kan have a real hard way to get out. I could buy a 5.5-4.5, and Iām still doubtful.
The way I see it, tier lists should be more about MUs and the strengths/weaknesses of each characters, instead of focusing on their appearances in tournaments, some high level players use characters that they just like to play with, or have a lot of experience with.
However, I do agree with all the characters considered as high tier (although there shouldnāt be a S list, the game es quite balanced at the moment), Spinal is still very good even without his draining curses (Bass still kick asses with him), he still has the scariest mixups in the game and his new instinct gives him even more mixup oportunities. Jago, Fulgore and Omen are also very good. Iām not entirely convinced about Gargos though, heās probably the character with the worst defense in the entire game, if you can knock him down, he can lose an entire life bar very quickly. He also has bad MUs, Spinal for example, he can power devour his zoning, quickly get behind him and prevent him from activating instinct, his only tool to keep Spinal away.
I also think that Thunder, TJ and Aganos deserve a little bit better; Thunder got nerfed, but he also got some scary stuff. TJ also got new tools, like stagger, flipout and recently his improved advantage ender, making him more versatile and a reset monster. And Aganos is not that bad, in the right hands is pretty much in line with the other B or B+ characters.
My humble opinion
Fulgore is in a tier of his own
Nerf Fulgore!
Him and Spinal are the best but only when they have their tools ready (meter and skulls)
Personally, Spinal sits in the B+ range. Maybe thatās just the opponents I play against, but I rarely lose to a spinal, save for versus Bass, and Zerg (back in the day).
Sure his tools are good, but they take some setup. Itās a āwin moreā situation. You need to either already be ahead in total health, or in an advantageous position (having a skull ready for a mix-up). If youāre really good at reacting to, or predicting your opponents you can get there. But if you slip up, youāre back to square one.
Spinal no longer generates skulls automatically in instinct, and thatās a big hit.
If weāre basing the tier list off of never being behind, sure, Spinal can be up there with Fulgore, but he doesnāt do well when he has to play defensive. Fulgore, on the other hand, has projectiles that donāt require resources, and his instinct gives him an advantage even if he is playing defensive. Pip-cancels and movement speed increases are amazing.
Alright, I havenāt been playing long, but my thoughts on just the top 4, in order of strength from strongest to weakest:
Fulgore: Nobodyās surprised by this right? Heās got every tool he could possibly need, and in S3 his zoning game has been juiced up in exchange for making him a bit less mindless, a trade Iām very happy with. Heās extremely stable and even though he may have to hold back on shadow counters he makes up for it by being extremely oppressive in everything else he does. Youāre simply not allowed to do anything with recovery once he fills up his bar to max. Thank god for the machine.
Omen: Heās scary in footsies, he has strong approach options, and his pressure is absolutely smothering. His damage may be bad, but he makes up for it by being very hard to control while also having a near-unparalleled control of the meter game. The changes to his persistent shadow fireballs make him terrifying to fight, as giving him a chance to set himself up can mean having to take 2-3 mixups in rapid succession, and even if you block if he has the meter he can just set it up again.
Jago: Absolute power through absolute simplicity. Jagoās damage is high, and like omen he has a very good meter gameāheās canāt seal the opponentās options as well through constantly available shadow counters and locking their meters out, but he still builds meter fast and being able to build instinct in combos is incredibly strong. Beyond that he has strong zoning tools, strong footsie tools, strong pressure tools, and heās never really out of a fight as long as he has instinctā¦which heāll have more frequently than any other character. On top of that he now has access to flipout, and his fireball charge/massive shadow fireball size are very strong in a variety of situations. Also, shadow wind kick. Jesus christ.
Glacius: There are two characters that I think benefit most from breakers being flipouts. The first is aganos, and the second is glacius. Breakers being flipouts gives him a license to kill; itās well in his interest to force blatant 50/50s with counterbreak mindgames on heavy doubles, because being broken just puts him back into his favorite range. On top of that he still has strong zoning and setups, his damage is still crazy, his instinct is much stronger in S3, and multihail makes me cry.
Speaking of which I think S3 aganos is a strong character. Breakers being flipouts means getting broken doesnāt damage his walls and like glacius, just puts him back into a range where he likes to fight. Heavies breaking armor does hurt, but not being put on his ā ā ā when he gets broken makes him a much more stable character, and recycling is great for long-term sustainability. However I think the fact that heās still a very awkward character to play means heāll stay unpopular in high-level play.
Honestly, IG just needs to force him to use more pips to cancel stuff instead of just 1 and 5 pips for Shadow attacks instead of 4. Also if Fulgore doesnāt fight the meter will stop completely.
That sounds like going overboard, but he definitely doesnāt need uppercut cancelled into a very low shadow air laser to be safe on block.
I donāt think so⦠Think about it⦠Almost all characters if they donāt do ANYTHING, they donāt get meter. People that run all the time and donāt fight, donāt get meter period. You gain meter for successful offence and defense.
If fulgore only runs away, using zoning moves and teleports and such, itāll take 52 seconds to build enough bar for one shadow meter (13 seconds per pip at his lowest spin speed.) 65, if they changed it to be 5 pips like you suggest.
Jago will build a full stock of meter if his opponent blocks five fireballs.
Jago throwing fireballs IS doing something though. If Jago is simply running (Iāve actually had players get a smidgen of life lead and then run the rest of the match) and not fighting, he wonāt gain meter.
As stated the inherent problem with Fulgore is that he was designed to be overpowered once he had meter⦠any meter. That was the whole point of him. That was the reason behind DH forcing players to have to manually charge him up. Players had to constantly keep his meter in check and know when to use Pip Cancels and when to conserve Pips if they needed to use Shadow Meter.
The current Fulgore sort of tosses all of that out the window. His Pips have become a dime a dozen and with just 1 pip he can start canceling his teleport into specials. Once this starts it is incredibly hard for any character (save another Fulgore) to keep him in check.
If they simply increased Fulgoreās Pip needs by just 1 Pip⦠2 Pips for cancelling moves and 5 pips for Shadow, I think it would be a step in the right direction.
Conversly they could go back to the manual charge with the THREE PUNCH BUTTON being his primary charge function and Auto Triples actually matering again, as each correctly performed Auto Triple would add a pip.
If fulgore is refusing to engage heāll gain meter at a rate so slow itās almost irrelevant. He has to make aggressive plays to get his reactor speed up. If he wants to zone AND heās spending pips while zoning, itās going to be very rare for him to have access to shadow countersāitāll probably only happen in instinct. Conversely with the manual charge mechanic, if heās able to build pips at all itās mostly going to be while heās zoning, making him even more incentivized to avoid engaging directly.
Making cancels cost 2 pips would be obscene. Literally DOUBLING the cost of the mechanic, when his rate of meter gain is already slow? Hellllll naw.