Sadira versus Gargos

same here i play hisako too now. much easy win than with sadira and less work too.:smiley:
take time to look at lechatnoirduxbl streams you can learn alots

Worst MU in the game? Iā€™d guess one of Raamā€™s, though from what I understand Glacius is a marginally better fight than against Kan-Ra. Could be wrong here though - @SithLordEDP?

Sadira has to fight Gargos grounded, itā€™s just one of those immutable facts of life. And itā€™s probably one of those fights where in all honesty one character just has to work harder than the other, which isnā€™t fun, but is a part of fighting games. Thatā€™s basically how I feel whenever Iā€™m fighting against a good Riptor :joy:

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Curious when you guys say ā€œworst match up,ā€ do any of you think that the matchups are so bad and so unbalanced that any of them should be looked at by the devs?

Donā€™t get me wrong. I know that counter picking exists and some characters are simply going to have bad matchups. I get that and Iā€™m obviously 100% fine with it.

But are any of these matchups that feel uneven a symptom of a characterā€™s struggles against a whole archetype? Separate question, I know, but it goes to the main question in a sense.

BTW, Iā€™m not asking rhetorically. Iā€™m genuinely curious. As someone with an utterly terrible Sadira, Iā€™ve played a decent amount of Gargos matchups and while I try to stay on the ground, I still canā€™t help but wonder if Sadieā€™s having some sort of existential crisis while sitting in the far corner, blocking shadow portal punches, wondering what itā€™s all about lol.

Is the matchup a ā€œjokeā€ as Kalypso indicates, or is that hyperbole, or should he be employing a more grounded strategy and how truly viable is that?

Sorry, I know itā€™s a lot of questions. Iā€™m not trolling for buffs here, I swear, but I do wonder (again, not rhetorically) if some of the matchups in the game are lopsided enough to go beyond ā€œgit gudā€ and in to the realm of, if not the exact category of ā€œno character should be a ā€˜jokeā€™ matchup against any other character.ā€ Curious what you guys think.

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This is an interesting point to be brought up, but honestly I believe that there will always be cases where this sort of matchup is a borderline inevitability. Sometimes kits just donā€™t play nice, it happens. Sadira v. Gargos is an interesting case, because Sadira is something of an outlier w/in her archetype (what I guess you could call the ā€˜ninjaā€™ archetype, ala Strider or Ibuki), and Gargos doesnā€™t fit w/in any traditional archetypal mold. While Sadira doesnā€™t necessarily have ā€œthe tools to beat Gargos,ā€ itā€™s less her kit and more habits/tendencies of her playerbase that make the matchup so brutal. Having to be airborne to utilize disjoint certainly doesnā€™t help her, but I think the matchup is so horrendous because Sadira players feel like they just HAVE to jump ALL THE TIME. If they can knock it off and play grounded against him until they score a knockdown, the matchup should even out considerably - once she knocks him down sheā€™s free to run that dirty wakeup game sheā€™s got and make him guess himself to death.

RE: The Kalypso question - at the risk of being flamed cuz how dare I question the wisdom of a top player, I think that was largely hyperbole. Sure, Sadira is one of Gargos incredibly few winning MUā€™s, if Sadira players can play the matchup correctly it shouldnā€™t be any worse than 5.5:4.5, and itā€™s definitely not as bad as ANY of RAAM v. Zoner MUā€™s, not by a mile. A joke? Absolutely not. The joke is that expression, and itā€™s unfortunate that thatā€™s the attitude our top reps choose to take (well, he donā€™t rep me, I donā€™t play Sadira, but in a more general sense you get what Iā€™m saying).

RE: Symptoms of a character struggling v. an archetype - True, classical ā€œdemon-wallā€ grapplers will ALWAYS struggle against dedicated zoning and multi-directional mobility (especially teleports). In this sense, RAAM will have a good pile of seriously losing MUā€™s, and thatā€™s okay. Thatā€™s just a byproduct of archetypal interactions (all through FG history, really), and the ā€œsolutionsā€ (buffing the grappler to evenly handle the zoners, or nerfing the zoners cuz theyā€™re mean to the grappler) would offset the power of either for the rest of the cast in ways that are bad for the game overall. The truth is that bad MUā€™s are okay sometimes, and the sooner we as a community accept that, the sooner we can get to leveling up - itā€™d be better for us all.

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This line of thinking is a bit off. Even if sadira does have a really bad matchup vs gargosā€¦bad matchups are just a thing that happens. Learn multiple characters, be prepared to counterpick. Not like youā€™re looking at a small number of characters that counterpick him :stuck_out_tongue:

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No, I donā€™t believe KI has any ā€œbrokenā€ MUā€™s, not across the entirety of the cast. While Iā€™d say that Gargos/Sadira is probably a 6-4 (and maaaaaybe a 7-3, though I doubt it), thatā€™s still not indicative of a ā€œbrokenā€ fight.

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Honestly, I do think Gargos will evolve, no matter what. Iā€™ve played fighting games since the dawn of their creation and Iā€™ve never seen an archetype like his, where a character can summon other characters to fight for them, other than having an alt character as a special move, such as Jill Valentine summoning a zombie during a fight, but even then itā€™s just a timed attack of which goes away.

Gargos though can summon (with meter) two alt characters that can stay on the screen as long as you let them. This does create interesting variables that can be hard to deal with. I always thought it would be good to have the Summons get stunned IF you combo Gargos. However, this subject deserves a thread of its own.

I know I have my gripes as a Sadira main, but as has most have said, much of that is stuff Iā€™ll have to live with and adapt to. Itā€™s also prudent to specialize more than just one character.