PLEASE Don't Release KI for PC On Windows Store Only

General Discussion
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This is my first post to the forum, and I’ve only had a little bit of time with KI on XBONE as I don’t have one. I’ve been excited ever since IG announced KI for PC, however as a PC gamer I’m afraid that KI will be forced into going the Windows Store route…

There’s a lot of talk out there about how bad the Windows Store has been to the first few games to be released on it; Rise of the Tomb Raider and Gears of War Ultimate Edition. There are several issues with this platform:

1.) Can’t disable V-Sync
2.) No SLI or Crossfire support
3.) No ability for overlays (think steam overlay or FRAPS)
4.) All game files are locked down so there is no potential for modding.

The biggest one for me is the inability to disable V-Sync. Enabling V-Sync inherently introduces input delay, which for any fighting game is a huge deal. From what I’ve read, the main reason for these limitations is that all apps run through their UWP framework which Windows Store games/apps run on, they are all forced into running in Boredelss Windowed mode. Phil Spencer has said they will be making improvements, but no word on what improvements specifically and when.

So my question is, will KI be Windows Store exclusive due to the heavy hand Microsoft has had in the support of KI? And if so, will it even be worth playing? I know many people have already bought KI without even owning an XBONE due to sales and the promise that owning it on one platform means you own it on both, and it would seem like what happened with the whole MKX PC port situation all over again.

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Their plan was to compete with Steam, actually.

Regarding the answer of being worthy of being played…it depends on this question: what do you know of KI? Did you like it when you played on Xbox One?

Because if we’re talking about processor and requirements, there won’t be problems considering they aren’t asking a lot (I did this PC in 2013 and still can run KI over the recommended stuff except for graphic card, slightly inferior to the recommended one)

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I understand they want to compete with Steam, however the platform is already being called a failure due to these limitations and purchasing games from this platform already sounds like a bad investment. Rise of the Tomb Raider released both on Steam and Windows Store, and that’s what started all of this discussion due to the vast differences in features between the two platforms.

And as far as whether I liked it or not, I did like it quite a bit. I’ve also been very much into watching KI in streams of both tournaments and streams like Max’s of course. I also have a very-overkill system for the requirements listed (i7 5930k OC’d to 4.3ghz, 2x GTX 980s in SLI), so that isn’t a factor for me either. It’s the V-Sync issue; whether or not there will be noticeable input delay on the PC version compared to the XBONE version or any other PC fighting game that allows you to disable V-Sync like normal (been having a blast with SFV and GG Xrd on PC). If KI releases on this platform with V-Sync forced to be enabled and has a noticeable amount of input delay, I will consider it a poor investment as far as buying it on PC goes.

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All the things listed will be fixed in the future.

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I think they are releasing in the Windows 10 store so there’s more control over piracy/ mods. If KI had a standard .exe file to run, it would be modified in the first 24 hours. Imagine auto combo breakers, hotkeys for special moves, pre-set manual combos, etc. In order to have a level playing field with Xbox One players, the game would have to run under specific limitations on PC in my opinion. It may not be what you or a lot of other PC gamers prefer, but it’s the best way to maintain the level of quality associated with KI.

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I can respect the need to have everything as level of a playing field for both platforms as possible when you’re doing cross-platform play, however there lies the issue that we’ve been seeing with SFV; the need to always be connected and potential server issues. I’d certainly say that Microsoft’s servers are much more stable than what Sony has going on, however we’ve already seen stupid things in SFV like local versus games being interrupted mid-tournament due to being disconnected from the server. Not to mention the other, and what I assume is the main driving factor in locking the files down is the fact that they don’t want anyone unlocking paid-content like costumes via mods.

And for the record, there would be nothing preventing someone from creating macros for combos and such on PC due to the kinds of keyboards out there with complete macro functionality. I have myself a Corsair K95 that has 18 fully programmable macro keys that can record inputs (delays and all) to a single key and press it at any time to perform whatever I just recorded. This is not anything anyone can prevent unless you prevent standard keyboard input inside of the game, which would pretty much end up being the death of that game as it would be completely impractical to do something like that.

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Steam had problems of its own at its inception and for a period after. MS have probably learned after GfWL so I’m gonna have faith that they can make it a good system given the time to work out the kinks.

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The game is specifically being built as an APP for the Windows 10 store so it’s actually impossible to release it to steam at this time. However as I’ve stated a couple of times already I would give it a year or so before they port it to steam. That’s just my opinion and would love to see it there as well.

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Pretty sure SFV has forced Vsync and it runs fine, well minus the other issues. It may release on Steam, someday. If you read the specs it’s DX11 so it’s not really bound by Windows 10. Still, people who have been asking for KI on PC won’t care that it’s not on Steam. Those who have actively chased KI won’t just suddenly be turned away because it’s on the Windows store, if they do then they were never really KI fans in the first place.

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To me, it’s not a “Steam or nothing!” situation, it’s a " anything but Windows Store" situation. I very much want to start getting into KI as it looks like a great game with a great community behind it. But what I have to take a stand on is not giving my money to something that promotes limiting a game’s potential by hamstringing it via the UWP framework. Saying something like “they were never really KI fans in the first place” implies that people should be willing to put up with bad business practices in order to play, which I feel is too common of a view that allows the state of game quality in general to continue to slip.

And as far as SFV and Vsync goes, you can disable it via the Nvidia/AMD control panel pretty easily, but if KI is being built on the UMP framework, then that will not be possible to do.

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First of all, I advise you stay away from NeoGaf.

Most of this stuff is overblown. Your v-sync issue will be addressed. Phil has said so. I don’t know if it will be addressed before launch but it will.

Furthermore, ask yourself this question: Do you think Microsoft cares more about KI than Windows and their Windows ecosystem?

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They also said Xbox One sticks would work on PC “soon”. It hasn’t happened, and it’s been two years.

Critical issues like no v-sync and no ability to overlay/capture the screen from UWP apps don’t need to be fixed “in the future”, they need to not be issues in the first place. These aren’t small concerns for many people, they are dealbreakers.

KI hasn’t launched yet on PC, so I can’t claim to know how well the game works. But if it launches with these problems with only the promise that it will be fixed in the future, then I’m very nervous (and disappointed).

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It’s a very reasonable post @ShaithGuy, and welcome to the KI community. I have posted in several places that I don’t think the complaints about the Windows Store are as bad as they are made out to be, but we are going to have to see on launch. I have the game on Xbox, so I have the luxury of getting to try it on PC for free.

I would be surprised if they ever released the game outside of the Windows Store, so I think the best you can hope for is an improved Windows Universal App implementation. Phil Spencer has said they are working on all of the things you mention (the first three by name, but I’m not certain about mods for KI specifically), but I don’t blame you for being wary. I probably would be too. Unfortunately for you in this case, I think MS is using KI as a test/poster child for the Windows Store to try to build it up. I suspect the decision to port to PC has as much to do with that as trying to build the fan base for KI.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it’s highly doubtful the KI development team has a role in this decision. I’m sure they will pass on the feedback they get here, but I doubt it’s up to them where KI lands on PC.

Finally, I’m curious about the input delay. Since most people are playing KI on LCD/LED TVs that have input delay somewhere between 20-70 ms (hopefully not more than 30-40 ms with Game Mode on), how much input delay would you estimate V-Sync could be responsible for? Even just a guess would be appreciated. I just want to put the issue in context for myself.

In any event, I hope it works out for you. KI is a really fun game.

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Macros in this instance would work against the player using them. While they would normally allow for a pre-programmed combo that would auto execute and allow them to get free damage just for landing the opening, the combo breaker system in KI would totally destroy this, as repeating a set output combo mapped to a button would run the risk of being an easy combo break as soon as the opposing player realized the pattern. Basically, you are sort of forced into doing manual inputs to some extent, which isn’t difficult for KI with or without Combo Assist. Playing a macro every time you get an opening just makes it easy for you to combo break, but since execution isn’t the biggest factor in the game, this seems like a very useless option.

And anytime an unbreakable is found, IG either develops a way to make it fair, or make it breakable. Cinder’s pyrobomb loop, while unbreakable, has been hit heavily damage wise and really doesn’t do much of anything now, making it useless to even bother with making a macro to execute it. KI is one game that tends to turn the traditional game upside down in more ways than one. Macros in this case will become a hazard rather than a tool, and run high risk with repeatable patterns.

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Turning V-sync off can save you 3-4 frames of lag (so 70 ms), and in some cases even more depending on a bunch of hardware and software things. Depending on your setup, it’s definitely cause for concern not being able to turn it off.

I’ve played SF4 on PC setups that didn’t have V-sync turned off and it was worse than online play.

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Keep in mind KI’s business model: the core game is free, and you purchase content (either individually or in packs such as the season bundles) which unlocks on your account – and it’s all cross-buy, so anything you can access on your 'Bone you also have on your PC. If you could download the game on Steam and then buy content in the Xbox store, there’d have to be some weird arrangement with Valve to send them a cut of the proceeds from purchases on the Xbox store – which, blatantly, is absurd.

An engineer (?) at Microsoft has tweeted about this. SLI and Crossfire are supported, Nixxies just didn’t get their ■■■■ together and support it for the RotTR port; and they claim the V-sync thing will be addressed.

Nothing specific has been said yet about addressing the other concerns that have been raised. UWP could require an entirely new ecosystem of overlays for all we know, etc. Mods could be very difficult, but you know MS can’t stop mods outright – at least, not with the current state-of-the-art technology.

It’s early days for a new platform, of course there’ll be teething issues. I’m actually super impressed that there aren’t a million other issues being brought up.

That said, with the cross-play/buy/save stuff, the integration with the Xbox Live infrastructure (which you’re apparently getting access to for free on PC), and the underlying UWP that is streamlining all of that for developers, it looks like Microsoft has something to offer. If anything, I’m more worried about Sweeney (who I generally respect, but think is cooking up conspiracy theories here) and hordes of PC zealots killing the platform with bad publicity before it hits its stride.

Long shot, but @TheKeits ?

A tenuous answer would be that the guys at IG care about this stuff a lot, and would want to achieve parity. The most appropriate answer is to wait and see.

You can play KI offline on the Bone, which is more than can be said for SFV.

We’re not going to disagree on another thing, are we? :stuck_out_tongue:

As I said above, It is surprising that there are so few issues with Microsoft’s new platform in its early days, so I don’t feel the same urgency about the matter. Also, this might boil down to personal preference, but I can’t fathom why anyone would voluntarily use that Steam overlay. Why is it useful?

I’ll be pretty concerned if there’s no good way of doing capture/streaming at launch, though.

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Nobody remembers Steam’s launch, but that thing was a friggin’ ■■■■ hole. I was there for Steam’s launch and it was absolute trash. That thing had way more issues than the current Win10 Store.

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man that’s quite the freaking rig! I’m Akudesyn on steam if you want to play some matches:P

Anyway, there’s another reason for KI to be a UWA. Crossplay with X1 is possible because both version use Xbox Live APIs, and those are only available on the UWP. For the time being UWAs are only accessible on the WinStore, BUT at Build 2016 (on march 30th) MS will explain how UWA will be available for other stores to be integrated, since they claim the UWP is open for everyone to be used. Just another thing, SLI support depends on the game, if the developer decides to support it, it will work on UWP.

KI will be released the day before the Build conference, if have doubts, just wait the conference and than decide. But I think that if you like the game, you should just pick it up, no matter what store it is on.

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exactly, win store is basically new to AAA game, and it’s based on new APIs… just give it time.

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Exactly. The best way to support a game but want a change is to get the game and make a well educated argument for what you want to be changed based on your experiences.

The game will be free to download and play. You won’t have any characters but whoever is free at the time, but you’ll still be able to go into dojo or training mode and see if there are any discrepancies in gameplay.