Please don't cater to SJRs (aka SJWs)

While there are both radicals and extremists on both ends of the spectrum, I believe that the main issue here with women is that they want more positive representation of women in games. It is no stretch to say that men have more choice and variety in regards to representation and who they like in games.

Positive doesn’t mean perfect. Bayonetta is positive, so is Lara Croft, and Glados. A good character is a good character, they just want more women, especially the main character of the game. Give us a female Walter White. That wouldn’t be a role model character at all, but would still be a great female representation.

The problem is some women fight too hard and try to reformat the world to their own personal taste. The men like how things are, and they view the women as the one to change and possibly take away their precious lifestyle. They feel threatened, so they fight back tooth and nail to protect it, ignoring the legitimate plight that some of the women face.

Oh fine, I’ll throw a few more cents in.

Fighting too hard? How does one fight politely for social progress or fight just the right amount? How do they talk about tropes or why objectification isn’t a good thing for the medium and not sound like hump-backed crones to the men’s rights brigade?

We’re talking about a gender that couldn’t even have credit cards in their names until 1976. Progress is never easy. There’s always resistance, regardless of how small or insignificant the issue might seem, it’s all part of a connected cultural picture.

To some, in the moment, progress might seem like censorship because gaining positive female influences or better connecting women to the context of a game and putting a spotlight on the tropes, the selling of s-e-x and marketing all seem aimed at taking a guy’s fun away, but I find a few faults in the overall ideology:

ONE - Not all guys want to see a vast majority of female characters sexualized or objectified in games, not just because exploitation is oily and at times needlessly dimeaning to gamers of both genders, but also because a lot of times it feels forced, out of context with the rest of the game, or just so flat out ridiculous looking it can be downright embarrassing to be seen playing that game.

TWO - This ludicrous concept of equating misogyny with maturity. It’s not a matter of Americans being too prudish or not evolved enough. It’s looking at a game like Street Fighter and saying "why are Ken and Ryu wearing karate gis while Cammy, who’s supposed to be in the military, is wearing a bathing suit? It doesn’t fit the context, and once you connect that with the obvious reason as to why she’s dressed that way, it becomes borderline insulting with how ridiculous and needlessly gratuitous it is.

Again, not a prude. I like women. I just think that seeing one in a bathing suit in a fighting tournament is silly and out of place and I don’t just shrug my shoulders because “hey, a hot chick, so who cares” when we’re talking about polygons. I’ll take immersion in to the game world over completely out of place, just because T&A every time.

It’s not sexually evolved to say “I don’t mind that this female character is dressed in a completely ridiculous way that in no way fits the genre of this game or who that character is just to sexify her for no real discernible reason.” To me, that’s really saying “I care so little about women that the only way I care to see them in this game is to see them naked, nearly naked or dressed and acting lasciviously, genre and story immersion be damnedd (sorry, figured that word gets bleeped). Or to be the trophy to be won at the end, my reward for winning.”

Sorry, but that’s not evolved thinking. It’s just not. It’s obeying the long established cultural paradigm that some women are trying to break in video games and sometimes they have to be a little less polite in their efforts.

THREE - The “this is okay but that’s not is hypocritical so everything should be allowed” argument has to stop. Again, it’s progress. It’s also a matter of the opinion of the devs and that’ll change over time.

Back in the 90’s, Orchid’s look was okay for Rare. MS/DH went a different way in 2013 even in spite of how Sadira looks. That’s their choice to make and their reasoning to line up. Some think Sadira’s underdressed and some think Orchid’s overdressed or not faithful to her original vision and the only people whose opinion matters in terms of where the line should be drawn is the devs and every team in the industry has their own line that changes over time.

It’s still a long road to equality in a variety of ways for women, from the pay gap to the societal pressure for youth and beauty that’s aimed far more at preying on female insecurity (even if the gentlemen style is aiming to tilt the scale on that front… Psst, beard oil is a stupid, needless expense…) than men’s insecurity.

The sooner men start to see how the small things fit in to a larger picture, the more they’ll notice those little things for what they are and be less willing to be quiet or dismissive or accepting about it. Patriarchy is like the matrix. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it.

I’m not a social justice warrior or a white knight or any other subversive blanket stereotype that fits in to the narrative of those that think sexism and objectification is all in good fun if it’s just a little or just a game. I’m a white guy that sees no reason why any other gender or race should societally or systematically have it worse than me in any way in 2016. The fact that there are so many gamers out there that can’t see how it all connects or simply don’t care even if they do see because they want their polygonal bewbs is downright embarrassing.

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Nicely put. I just put a quick response here on the thread. I didn’t think too much into it as I’m posting in a KI forum. I should have been more eloquent.

I do think there is a thing as going too far, as well as I don’t have to agree with everything that a cause brings forth. It is fine to ruffle some feathers for the right cause, but the cause is cloudy for some.

Take equal rights for example. I agree with what MLK said and I love his speeches, and he was influential to the cause. I, however, do not agree with everything that the black panther movement represented, even though they were born from the same cause and had similar goals and interests.

Some women are fighting the good fight, some are not is all I meant.

Also, sex is not a bad thing, and we all objectify, especially during sex or when we pick a partner. I don’t think I’m wrong because I love the look of a woman.

Oh no I totally hear ya, man. I didn’t mean to imply that everyone fighting for a cause has pure motives either. I’m trying not to speculate on purity of motive too much though.

I just believe that the cause itself is a good one, and since I haven’t seen a whole lot of cases of women doxing male game makers and threatening to forcibly penetrate them to death, the women have been on largely solid ground in this cultural debate, even if certain methods might seem questionable or perhaps even dubious at times.

I also don’t think that those particular male gamers represent the majority, who I like to believe are a lot more inclusive and forward thinking than that. It’s just the extremists on both sides that tend to hijack the debate, fill the pool with as much pee as possible and then bask in the warmth of the anger and hatred they produce as they ruin it for everyone else and make all gamers seem like salty, entitled children who would rather stay in their treehouse with their bros than take down the No Girls Allowed sign and make a new friend or two.

Okay, a lot of metaphors and some over extensions of metaphors at that, but you get my drift. :slightly_smiling:

Also, to be clear, I don’t think that s-e-x is a bad thing either. As I said, I like women too. But the idea of s-e-x as a game reward or a woman as a trophy for winning or stuff along those lines? Where they’re basically an object in a completely different sense?

I don’t think that’s just reinforcing a negative cultural paradigm, I also think that’s garbage writing and storytelling that belongs more in an 80’s movie than anything else.

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That’s true, men and women are different in a lot of ways.
The change in the male character presentation in DOA5 doesn’t represent equality, but it does represent a change worth noting.
Tbh I’ve never used/saved any replays, I have used the watch/camera mode, ironically just to take cool looking photos (I’m into photography - I can’t speak for anyone else though, lol.)

If it’s not for you that’s cool, people should just play what they enjoy.
The way the industry is regulated, you’re not going to see anything illegal in console games, furthermore you’ll only see mature content if you as an adult choose to.
I can’t explain the reasoning behind types of fetishes, just the other day I read an article on a married man who’s having an affair with a horse, a woman who is only attracted to dolphins, and another guy who’s only attracted to women wearing headphones?!? (It was about $£#ual conditioning, lol)

Questionable reading habits aside, men and women do objectify each other, albeit in different ways.
Portraying a character as attractive or desirable doesn’t necessarily mean everyone will objectify them, and vice versa.

In relation to the fear of censorship which a number of people have mentioned and also antman159’s comments, I think that comes from the ‘Gamers are Dead’ movement and the corruption in the indie gaming scene and media which was largely due to members of the sjw crowd.
Gamergate was a consumer response to that. The accused essentially deflected the initial accusations into that of ‘harassment of women in games’ as a means of control.
The ‘Gamers are dead’ thing pretty much fell flat on it’s face, but it’s understandable why people are defensive about anything related to it, as they don’t want anything like that to happen again.

Personally I think the industry has great examples of cool female characters, games that defy convention, and has always looked to break down barriers and expand it’s audience. Things like the Wii/DS and mobile gaming have done more in that regard then any of the progressive criticism I’ve seen, but there’s also room for improvement.

It’s a good read.

Absolutely, but the key component in the game world, to me at least, tends to be intent to objectify. Team Ninja uses s-e-x as part of their effort to sell DOA. All the swimsuits and fetish gear? The underwear showing several times a match? The post-match camera control, the crazy proportions and body physics? To me, that’s enough to imply intent, regardless of who’s objectifying the characters and who’s not.

Human men and women, in contrast, are not in the default position of using s-e-x to sell themselves all the time or even some of the time and I’d argue that in most cases, people aren’t dressing up with the desire or intent to be treated like an object or as less than human.

So the fact that this objectification does happen at times between two humans when looking at base attraction, I dunno, I don’t really see that as justification for how gaming tends to objectify women. Not all the time, certainly, but enough to be an evolving issue worth talking about.

I agree whole-heartedly. There are some great examples. I guess I just look forward to a day where these characters are a default idea and not examples to be held up and praised for their uniqueness and/or forward think on the part of devs.

I don’t mean to sound greedy or negative or whatever. Sorry if I come off that way.

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I’m actually not buying SFV because they removed it. You can make games without sexuality but if it’s already included do NOT remove it.

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Maya is an example on how a character can be appealing without showing too many flesh. Her figure is feminine her face is gorgeous and her hair is well done. That’s a woman you may want to approach IRL.

Sadira, in exchange, is the opposite. Sideboob, thong, round plastic fake looking breasts… that may say “grrrr” to some, but to be honest, with that face and that hair, it kinda screams “not classy” to me.

Orchid is an interesting case. Her figure is obviously se.xy (although a bit “cartoony”, huge bosom, an impossible waist and a muscular tone of a fitness champ) yet her face is a bit off.

Orchid’s face has been carefully designed to look like of classic Orchid. The problem is that thanks to that faithfulness, it falls flat in comparison to Maya. Maya’s is much more detailed.

Would I trade a redone Orchid rig (with more realistic proportions) for a reworked hair and face? absolutely. I don’t mind her hips and waist being a bit wider and her chest a tad smaller (they are huge tbh) as long as we get a gorgeous face and hair.

It’s like the new Tomb Raider.

“Lara lost her attributes and is a whiny little girl compared to exhuberant cocky ruthless killer old Lara”

Um, have you seen how expresive she is? her face? her hair? Anyone who prefers old Lara to new one doesn’t really spend intimate time with women.

EDIT: Lol at “b.r.e.a.s.t.s.” and “s.e.x.y.” being censored. Please remove it.

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Actually, I’d love to like this comment twice.

Original Lara Croft was fun and culturally significant - more for not being a male than any particular character of her own. But she was witty enough for the then standard in video games. As a fleshed out character she was sort of the Terminator with giant triangles, though. And a ton of the game’s marketing was focused on the triangles.

The new Lara is like a living breathing human being represented in game form. Yes, she’s still a terminator and the game is a long way from reality. I thought the first one had a little too much “torture ■■■■” but at least there was an attempt to portray a female lead with some depth and personality. I’m looking forward to starting the next one. It’s worth noting, too, how Laura’s figure is an increasingly less prominent feature of the game and its sales. Compared to TR 2, where Laura in a wet suit was the dominant imagery, most of the promotional material for RoTTR has her in a parka.

Well, Remember that it was still in Beta phase. So ANYTHING could change. I think that was in the Terms and Service, but no body ever reads those… Lol

I try and buy a game for the gameplay. Like If DOA had Bikini Girls, and they remove it, Still playing it, because I don’t think bikini girls enhance gameplay. :slight_smile:

Same here. Won’t be buying SFV until they add it back into the game.

I’ll say one more thing in conclusion: To hell with all the Social Justice Radicals, the Anita Sarkessian-wannabes and anybody else who actually agrees with them or supports company decisions to censor game content or not bring certain games to the west.

It’s time we all take a stand against them. And I suggest MS and IG do the same by not censoring Killer Instinct Season 3 content and catering to the SJRs.

They probably won’t bring it back in the game. It was for the esrb rating anyway I believe. Gotta make sure it’s in the teen rating y’know?

It was pointless gesture to begin with anyway, but hey Opinions.

If your not gonna buy Sfv just for that reason… I won’t stop you…but really…

Not buying a game because they removed a half second butt slap?? That’s like not eating a meal because the restaurant’s name was changed from Denny’s to Denise.

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i thik shirtless ryu is a trade off.
Maybe we should also get half naked ken and zangief, and a speedo rashid

I didn’t want to say it like that…but yeah…

Zangief is already half naked(way more). Regardless,I think games can censor when neccessary but if they do it even though it isn’t neccessary,problems appear.

do you think sadira needs shorts instead of thong panties

Just curious

I hope the upcoming females are rooted in high tech gear and if sexy, fully covered.

A skin tight catsuit with a leather skirt and hgh boots is sexier than butt floss

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Sorry, I’m just not seeing it. Take a stand for pointless sex imagery in games to stick it to a bunch of people who didn’t actually complain about it, make the decision to remove it or, as far as I can tell even notice it to begin with.

People generally “take a stand” for things that are even moderately important. Not to prevent tasteful and basically consumer friendly decisions.

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Good point + I agree, the intent behind the material is the same, regardless of the intentions of the end user.

I’m pretty sure things will continue to improve, the industry is always moving forward, building upon past achievements, it’ll keep getting better.

I don’t really see it as necessary as it kind of fits Sadira’s character.

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