South Parks PC Principle confirmed as next guest character! Ma-Ma-Micro Aggressions breaker!!!
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This is your problem, you assume because I am dismantling this guyâs foolish arguments I agree with the OP or angry Josh. On the contrary, I just wish the season 1 costumes got a quality makeover, the sexiness of them doesnât really matter.
Just because you think a guy is on your team, doesnât mean one should accept any nonsense argument if it doesnât make any sense whatsoever. And to be perfectly honest, anybody who uses their own child as a kind of human shield in an argument isnât much of a man. Josh is just the other side of that coin.
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Okay, I will bite on your second obvious attempt to goad me into a response.
My daughter is going about her business blithely unaware of this conversation. I havenât used her as a shield for this or any other argument. Iâm offering an explanation as to why the content is potentially limiting the audience for KI. Iâm not asking them to take the â â â â out of a porno, Iâm asking them not to put inappropriate content into a game that currently is well within the scope of family friendly.
KI is no more damaging to her psyche than Tom and Jerry cartoons or playing robots vs. dinosaurs with her brother. You know that already - youâre not making a serious argument you are just being a clown on the Internet.
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âŠand thatâs a ban warning. That one plus the follow ups puts you right on the edge.
Everyone: Letâs be civil to each other, please. Trying to argue a point that starts with personal attacks conveys that youâre the one being immature and lashing out with an insult instead of rational debate (point, counterpoint) because you donât really want to debate the topic at all.
For actually trying to debate? hardly.
While this thread is topical, it will stay open if people can stay civil. If not, some people will get vacations from the forums for a bit and weâll close it.
For the what itâs worth, I do apologize for the assumption that you agreed with the OP, did not mean to put words in anyoneâs mouth. On the flip side, I donât appreciate your assumption that Iâm just parroting an argument and doing no thinking for myself. Iâm not assuming BidBadAndy is âon my teamâ nor am I just accepting a nonsensical argument. I happen to find the argumentâs heâs making well-worded (much more so than anyone else who was attempted to âdebateâ against him thus far); itâs not just about comparing sexuality to scat. That is not the point heâs making. From what I gathered, itâs about considering two natural facets of human life and showing how neither of them have a place in KI, for various reasons. If you canât see that, well then. ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ
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Absolutely, writers can be critical of others, and vice versa.
I thought the whole UN situation was to do with the censorship of the internet, although I havenât read into it much.
I have seen people in the media deliberately hate on game franchises or harbor grudges against people in the industry, but those people ultimately succeeded in ruining their own reputation.
Gender tropes - i.m.o. people in modern countries have significantly greater freedom of choice than those in other places of the world, + I donât particularly see video games as their root cause of suffering, or the cure. Change in those places needs to come from a re-evaluation of both genderâs roles and societal expectations - a one-sided attempt wonât work.
If Capcom put mature content in SFV, they may attract new fans, or lose others - itâs a risk, but ultimately their decision. Companies sometimes make products for a specific target audience, so I guess it depends on what audience theyâre aiming for.
No, in DOA the post fight cam is fixed on your own character, Iâm pretty sure there are skimpy outfits, wet clothing/sweat/dirt effects and awkward lose-poses for the male characters too, + the option to turn most of it off.
Mature games definitely cater more so for male gamers, but thereâs no doubt (looking at the film,TV and the music industry) that that type of content appeals to some women as well.
Things are changing slowly, personally I think the industry needs more of that stuff for women, rather than less for men. Games are regulated, so long as theyâre used responsibly I donât have a problem with mature content. If an adult woman plays âRinse and Repeatâ or if a adult man plays âHuniepopâ , Iâm pretty sure it wonât turn them into criminals/offenders, or cause them to mistreat others.
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IF I see a inch, a inch of them giving in, Iâll step in and tell them why it not going to help, IF they give in, I love KI but Iâm jumping ship.
yeah and? If anything #Gamergate was a long time coming. We seen what happens when people use the âOut of site, out of mindâ tactic, SJW are doing Damage souly for the fact that they need something to be mad about OR they have to deal with the fact that.
A) They bank on being problem starting Victims.
B) They have to come to terms that they are the problem.
If we donât say good bye to the art of video games.
they want a video game where very one has to be nice, go make their own not Mess with otherâs works and let us deal with the passion weâve grown with.
And weâll find whoâs the real gamers with in us, and not some âPlayerâ as they put it. no one has to say sorry, IF they donât like it donât play the games⊠oh wait they donât really play games.
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Does any of this really matter though, like others have said its IG/MS game theyâre smart enough to know whatâs appropriate in it and whatâs not. If they made a character that was outrageously offensive than thereâd be a reason to even have this discussion especially for characters that havenât even been shown yet.
I 100% agree with this. I have had some eye opening experiences travelling to different countries with female colleagues. The treatment of women around the world in many places is appalling - and has nothing at all to do with video games. Women in industrialized countries are doing better now than at any time in history, and I donât think it makes sense to vilify video games as somehow contributing to the decline of Western Civilization or creating hostile or discriminating environments for women in society.
BUT - I donât think that means that everything anyone wants to do in a video game we should just say âokay, no problem.â And it doesnât mean that we have to support or buy games with images or depictions we donât like. And it ESPECIALLY doesnât mean that it all needs to get dumped into KI.
[quote=âAnodyneGeno, post:45, topic:3813â]
From what I gathered, itâs about considering two natural facets of human life and showing how neither of them have a place in KI, for various reasons. If you canât see that, well then. ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ
[/quote] Thank you. This was my intended message. I admit, sometimes I get carried away having fun with my rants, but Iâm glad to know that some people get it.
[quote=âLittleHellXIII, post:46, topic:3813â]
No, in DOA the post fight cam is fixed on your own character, Iâm pretty sure there are skimpy outfits, wet clothing/sweat/dirt effects and awkward lose-poses for the male characters too, + the option to turn most of it off.
[/quote] You are making reasonable points, so I donât want to pick a fight with you. I just want to point out that it is not a valid argument to say âif you do it to men and women in the game then you are all good.â Men and women respond differently to imagery, and men and women relate differently to each other and to forms of media. This is, in my opinion, one of the real tragedies of the modern, western, feminist movement - they have confused everyone into thinking that equality means equivalence. Men and women are different. For lots of reasons and in lots of ways. We donât need to lie and pretend that women are as big and strong as men in order to have equality in society. At the same time we canât lie and pretend that depicting Zangiefâs bulging muscly chest is the same as showing R. Mikaâs bulging breasts (wow - that got censored⊠itâs a womanâs chest). Itâs not the same. Iâm sorry if that doesnât seem fair to all of us now that we have spent our lives being bludgeoned with the idea that equivalence is the same as equality - but it just isnât true. I didnât make it this way, so donât shoot the messenger. But we know that women and men respond to images differently, and they get different messages from the media depictions they see. Thatâs just reality. Also, just as a point of clarity - DoA has (for a very long time) had the most technically impressive recording and replay system of any game. It has a fully controllable forward and backward play and allows you to move the camera viewpoint anywhere. It really is quite a programming accomplishment - especially since it was first implemented when such a thing was unheard of in other games. Sadly, the developers spent so much time and energy developing this system because of itâs upskirt potential rather than itâs utility as a fighting game training tool.
To clarify, I think there is plenty of room in the world for mature, adult content (I would love if we could disambiguate the real meaning of mature from âmatureâ meaning containing explicit sex, violence and language - which is often very immatureâŠ). The Last of Us is a game with mature content. Itâs a work of art and itâs incredibly impactful. I also think thereâs room in the world for silly, immature depictions of sex. But you have to be prepared for people to criticize what you do, and you have to be prepared for the fact that everyone doesnât want to play those games or have those elements added to games that they like.
I own MKX. It is gratuitously violent. It sometimes crosses a line that makes me uncomfortable - but I knew what I was getting when I bought it and I would never suggest that MK be banned. I donât play MKX in front of my kids. Conversely, I have always been a big fan of DoAâs gameplay. I think at itâs core it is a much better fighting game than anything in the MK series. It is fast and fluid, with a low execution barrier and great mindgames - not unlike KI. I have, in the past, played DoA - DESPITE the fact that I find itâs silly depictions of physically exaggerated, underage sex dolls to be tasteless. But I have finally abandoned the series. I just canât enjoy it because it is offensive to me. You may not feel the same, and thatâs fine. Iâm not suggesting it be banned or burned or litigated. Iâm explaining why I donât play it. And I think itâs a shame. People can rail at me and say I have a problem and I should just lighten up and enjoy the game (and believe me, they always do when I say this). But I just canât enjoy it. And Iâm not alone.
One of the things that bothers me is that gamers in all of the various gaming communities - MOBAs, FPSâs, the FGC - are always arguing that gaming is a mainstream hobby and that the world games. Itâs not just a hobby for acne riddled, physically unfit, socially awkward teenage boys. And this is so true. But then, we all demand games that play so easily into the stereotype of what a âgamerâ is and are surprised when people continue to think that gaming is a hobby for stunted adolescents. I can easily go to my workplace and talk about all of my other hobbies or games that people play - fishing, bowling, golf - and no one bats an eye. But if I go and say Iâm into video games people look at me funny. Iâm not overly concerned about this, and it is definitely getting better. But I donât understand why so many âgamersâ insist on demanding really inconsequential things like Orchid in a thong, or the original R. Mika buttslap.
[quote=âantman159, post:48, topic:3813â]
We seen what happens when people use the âOut of site, out of mindâ tactic, SJW are doing Damage souly for the fact that they need something to be mad aboutâŠ[/quote] Iâve tried to engage GamerGate guys before and gotten no where. I really just canât understand what all this is about and I try to get to the bottom of it and I just get the same generic responses. Can you clarify what âdamageâ it is EXACTLY that SJWâs are doing to games? Iâm looking around and I see DoA, and MkX, and Gears of War, and God of War and Grand Theft Auto and many, many games filled with sex and violence. I was playing Wolfenstein, the New Order last night and the game has multiple, full on depictions of sexual intercourse, interspersed with horrendous violence and a huge body count. An evil villain woman who gets her jaw ripped off and comes at you with a machine gun in each hand. Not censored, not banned. This is a reasonably new game. So what is getting damaged or banned by SJWs? Iâm just completely lost as to what the fuss is all about.
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The beach analogy destroys every opposing argument in this thread.
I can get with your angle of a âtime and placeâ for everything, but how would that apply to a video game that is not rated E for everyone but rather T for teen or even M for Mature. Its clear the ESRB establishes guidelines for specific ratings. Itâs up for the developers then to choose what they will and will not keep in their game in order for them to meet that rating. Using Orchidsâs KI2 costume for example wouldnât have pushed the rating as we have seen similar costumes in T rated games for over a decade. I just want to know at what point do we not allow our children younger than 18 to play/watch us play certain games if we truly felt the imagery presented within them somehow creates psychological damage in the development of said child? Children arenât born with the perceptual shame of an exposed human body. They are TAUGHT by society to condemn these things.
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This thread. I donât know what to say. I am dumbfounded.
All the insults. Well my thoughts? I believe Ig should go as creative as they can. As long as it is reasonable of course. If it isnât anything too offensive,it should be fine. Too offensive and I can understand them toning it down. The line between reasonable and offensive is vague though. I do trust IG to do this right though.
Long story short they are trying to push everything what you stated above as Evil to women, black, Etc, etc⊠But when it some to a male or a white male getting killed or something itâs fine.
they then tried to speak for people who didnât agree with them. with is why #notyoursheild was a thing.
Yes some people who clame to be from gamergate Are doing the same thing and making as just as much money off of it as the SJWs.
In short, We donât want them to change change games based of someone saying âIt offends me take it outâ when the fan base likes it.
noone wants changes to a game they like because some people say they love games but yells as soon as something they donât like pops up into the game then yells grow up.
Sure. also you didnât see how GTA5 was pulled from a target for âDehumanizingâ women? but in the gameâs story you destroy large number of men often by the truck load But kill a hooker? problem.
As an Orchid fan , I never rallied for her costume to be specialized for sexual gratification, only a passionate throwback that was faithful to the incarnation that was to be touted as a âretro costumeâ.
To be honest, I just want realistic hair and non-muppet mouth animations.
Itâs sad that censorship and mental levels get in the way of what becomes a parents job for a video game a child could not even afford, a 4 yr old should be learning mathematics, not bloody ultra combos lol
The inclusion of Sadiras DEFAULT PANTIES negates any and every argument that Orchids KI2 outfit was offensive.
Again,
The inclusion of Sadiras DEFAULT PANTIES negates any and every argument that Orchids KI2 outfit was offensive.
Please research and know that anyone stating 'thank god orchid doesnât have thigh high stockings and panties like -er, Sadiras DEFAULT.
Really, there were a lot of artistic ways to have taken Or hid new outfits beyond just showing her cheeks. I could care less about the backside, Wonder Woman, Storm, Psylocke all of these greats had outfits that were judged in the eyes of the beholder. Iâd have rather seen a full on CatWoman or Black Widow outfit that covered ALL of Orchids body rather than the mishap of the DH retro, but oh well LETS MOVE ON
LORD HELP US when Kim Wu retro outfit comes out!!!
God be with us!!!
Kim Wus lower KI2 half IS THE SAME as SADIRAS DEFAULT
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At the end of the day, If you donât agree with the gameâs art style, just donât but it Nor pay them (I.E the games in question) any mind.
But SJWs know that.
[quote=âCloudSkywalker8, post:52, topic:3813â]
Children arenât born with the perceptual shame of an exposed human body. They are TAUGHT by society to condemn these things.
[/quote]this is true, but you are using it to propagate the outright lie that video game depictions of women have something to do with the human form. There is not one female character in SF that has a realistic body. These are not anatomy lessons kids.
True story: my son - who watched his mom breast-feed his baby sister and has no shame or hang ups associated with human female anatomy - walked up behind me while I was playing SF V and said âwhat is wrong with the front of her.â Because Chun Li was on the character select screen. Her enormous, bizarrely bouncing chest is so ridiculous and outside the realm of reality that he didnât even know what he was looking at. This is a kid who knows no shame and knows all the correct words for human body parts and what they are for. These exaggerated, hyper sexual depictions of women are not a celebration or expression of the human body. They are something else entirely. There is not a woman alive that has â â â â â like Chun Li. They are not shaped like womenâs breasts, they donât act like a real womanâs chest, and they are completely out of proportion to her body. Even women with implants who work in the trade donât have the proportions of Chun Li. Further, unlike the exaggerated muscles on male SF characters, her chest would make it completely impossible for her to move around normally, let alone be a street fighter. So, with all due respect, no one can tell me honestly that this is a discussion about depiction of the human form and whether itâs okay for kids to see naked people. We donât have to collectively create some mythology about body shame and the human form to avoid dealing with the reality that video game women are overwhelmingly hyper sexualized to appeal to a target demographic.
Okay, if you want that absurdity in your game thatâs your prerogative and there are plenty of games out there for you to choose from. The thread is not about what my kids should see. I can and do control what my children are exposed to, and other parents should do the same. People are free to use their own judgment.
But here is my point: my lifestyle is such that I want to be able to game in front of and with my kids. That is my prerogative. Judging by what I hear coming over peopleâs Kinect speakers, I am not alone. So, I appreciate that KI has (relatively) tasteful depictions of women. I own MKX, but I wonât play it in front of my kids - therefore I rarely play it. I havenât bought any DLC for it because I donât play it. I donât watch tournament footage, post on the MK boards or contribute to the MKX tournament fund. Because KI has catered to my lifestyle (and is a great game), I play it (relatively) a lot. I hang in the forums and watch tournaments. I buy two seasons worth of Ultra editions and Shago for my 13 year old nephew during the community fund drive. I encourage my fishing buddy, who is not much of a gamer and has three daughters between the ages of 7 and 15 to buy KI. I donât tell him to buy DoA.
Now, we have people saying they should bring back Orchidâs thong (just as an example - I know the requests cover lots of other âmatureâ content ) and that anyone opposed to it is aligned with the anti-gamer forces of evil and a SJW. That simply isnât true. And adding gratuitous imagery to KI is going to make guys like me put it up on a shelf. I donât think Orchid in a thong is going to drive the player base. And again, itâs gratuitous. It makes no sense as a combat uniform, or as part of Orchidâs character. It doesnât enhance gameplay or believability. So people want them to add this because why? I have no problem with the depiction of women in EAâs UFC game because they are modeled after real women and what they really wear in fights. None of them look or act like Chun Li, and they donât wear thongs. Phony Japanese female luchador wrestling is not the same thing.
I know your a philosophical guy, and although we have rarely agreed on anything in the KI forums I can respect that. There is a fascinating and intellectual conversation about adults, children, the naked body, the role of society in acceptance and normalization of body imagery etc. Thats a great conversation to have. But it really has nothing to do with the debate about adding mature content to KI.
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Because a child isnât able to make the distinction, which seems to be the focus of your premise. Whatâs reality to us isnât so for a child. And the fact that we are discussing video games should suffice as far as things not appearing ârealistic.â I think we are saying the same thing but in vastly polarized ways based on one side being more subjective than the other.
Using Orchid as an example nullifies the argument from both angles because: 1) the existence of Sadiraâs default and 2) itâs less about gratuitous body showing and more about remaning true to the depicted iteration of the character. As someone who is astute when it comes to art and design, you can tell her retro was changed literally at the last minute on top of the fact that the art book depicts their original vision.
In reference to other games, I hope nobody gets it confused and thinks I support DOA levels of sexualization because that in my âsubjectiveâ opinion is an example of too much. But I still wouldnât be one to chastise the developers for it especially as their rating merits their vision. I think what a lot of people donât get is that we arenât speaking about wanting something that wasnât meant to be there in the first place, instead this premise is quite the opposite.
Some people just want characters to remain as true to their classic forms as possible. And itâs interesting because Jago is my favorite character yet somehow DH found a way to make his retro even MORE sexualized than it was yet nobody bats an eye or speaks about it appearing tasteless. It is ONLY when a female character represents and expresses sexuality is when itâs threatening to the psychological development of children, which shows just how reverse and âsexistâ this premise actually is.
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If the dudes in this game had big bulging crotches and the camera swirled around their genitals at the end of each round while they struck poses to emphasize their crotch then people would be pretty horrified. Again, you can make the case that Jagoâs retro is sexier than his original KI outfit (I donât see it, but for the sake of argument I will accept that it is), but it is not sexy in the way that the DoA girls are, or exaggerated like Chun Li. Sexy is fine. The new Orchid is sexy. She doesnât look like a nun. She has male fantasy proportions - but the overall character design is different than SFV Chun Li. (SF 2 Chun Li was very sexy, but not like SF V Chun Li)
Sadiraâs outfit is a stretch, but she is largely covered much of the time. Her intro is a bit cringe-worthy in my opinion, but at least it fits with the supposed nature of her character. Orchidâs flick flak move, in a thong, is something else. For what itâs worth, in the very rare event that I choose to play as Sadira I pick one of her cool retro outfits, which to me are more interesting and practical than her default outfit. And really, itâs less about the immediate and direct effect of that particular fashion choice and more about the overall tone and content of the game. KI 2013 Orchid looks great and my opinion is we need more of that and less of KI2 Orchid.
And I think itâs important to remember that this thread isnât a bunch of people lobbying to get rid of content that is in KI. Itâs a bunch of people lobbying to add more explicit content under the peculiar argument that if SJWs are against it we need to all be for it.
My kids have taken on an inflated importance to this conversation, but since they are important to me and I learn a lot from them Iâm happy to share my stories. Just to illustrate my point about the difference between boys and girls⊠Right now my kids are still uneducated enough to think that I am cool. They think everything I do is awesome and they want to do it with me because they want to be just like me. My son has no concept of clothes or the signals they send. If you asked him what he was wearing at any given moment he would have to look down to see. He wears whatever his mom pulls out of the drawer for him and only thinks about it long enough to pull them on (usually backwards). My daughter is obsessed with clothes and very particular about what she wears. On any given day she will get up and dress herself immaculately without adult supervision. This is built in - itâs not something we taught them or that they picked up from âsociety.â So the way she looks at video game characters and their clothes is very different from the way my son does. I donât think my son is going to ever want to dress like Jago. But my daughter can and does try to dress like the girls she sees on tv. So we are more careful about what she sees. Beyond that, they are both eagerly looking to me to see how adult men are âsupposed toâ behave. I am very happy to model for them that adult men sit around and play video games, and especially that they play games with their kids. I am not willing to send them the message that it is normal for adult men to sit in front of games and ogle sexy caricatures of women. And because I like KI and want to keep playing it with and in front of them, I want to keep those things out of KI.
Everyone has a line they draw somewhere and people are free to differ in where exactly they put the line. You said DoA is too far for you but Orchid from KI 2 is fine. Thatâs cool. Iâm not trying to change KI to match my world view. But I do think the devs have a good reason for the decisions they have made and itâs not pandering to radicals.
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Both names work and describe the type weâre talking about well enough.
Theyâve made a few fair points, and some feminists are more reasonable (and actually care about gaming more) than others. But the influential likes of Sarkeesian, and the attitude they promote, has been a problem. Theyâve got a narrow view of what certain character types should be and sensationalize problems to be bigger than they are. They also like to demonize things they disagree with, and come across as pro-censorship. As far as Anita herself, Iâve seen a few of her videos and itâs pretty obvious she doesnât play the games she criticizes or at least doesnât pay much attention to them.
And like I said, Iâm not much of a fan of some of the the GamerGate/anti-SJW types either. Theyâve pretty much become the monster they set out to fight in the first place: politics in gaming. Now weâve got two sides locked in a snarky culture war, trying to rally everything to their side via ridiculing people/groups and victimizing themselves by throwing self-righteous fits over the pettiest things.