Patch Notes 2.11

[Infilament]

@GalacticGeek

That being said, I didn’t realize that enders had to be grounded. Why is that a rule?

It’s been the case ever since KI launched. Enders must be cancels (after an auto-double, linker, manual, etc) and they must be on a grounded opponent (ie, someone “in the combo sequence”). Since S2 has some characters that like to do juggles, they added a special rule starting in S2 that let shadow enders cash out as enders any time they are used as an ender, including on juggled/mid-air opponents. This means that if you want to cash out an opponent who is in the air, you MUST use a shadow ender or you must recapture them in order to use “normal” grounded enders.

To put it more succinctly, moves marked as “shadow enders” will cash out when used as manuals (see below).

@GalacticGeek

Also, I’ve NEVER heard of special moves acting as manuals.

The word “manual” is just KI-speak for “link”. You can link two moves together any time you can fully recover from the first move and still have enough time to start the second move before your opponent has left hit stun. So… the “manuals” that you are used to (normals used in a combo after a linker) work with this definition. You do the linker, wait for it to completely finish, then try to hit with a regular normal. I’m sure you’ve noticed you can also do (light) manuals after heavy auto-doubles? It’s because there is enough hit advantage for the link to work.

This also applies to air-to-air or ground-to-air juggles. If I launch you with Jago’s laser sword ender, then walk up and hit you out of the air with anything (a normal or a special move), this is a link, so calling it a “manual” is accurate. If I anti-air you with early light DP as Jago, then do another DP before you hit the ground, this is also a “manual”.

You can do “special move manuals” even when both of you are on the ground. It’s rare, but it’s possible. For instance, Jago has a super fast DP, and light laser sword opener leaves you with enough frame advantage to do an extremely late DP. If you wait long enough between them, you won’t get the ender version, instead you’ll get the DP you would normally get in neutral; it won’t cash out because it’s not a canceled ender, but it WILL be combo breakable if you guess the strength because you have done an opener somewhere in the combo before it. It’s effectively no different than doing, say… standing MK as a manual after light laser sword opener (except st.MK will let you keep going with the combo sequence, whereas a DP manual just ends your combo).

@GalacticGeek

So, does this mean that Aganos, for all the damage he does, doesn’t actually have a damage ender at all?

He doesn’t really have a “true” damage ender, no (that is, an ender that does remarkably more damage than other enders with no other added benefits). But every character has an ender that does the most damage they can do, and it just happens to be pulverize for Aganos. So I guess you could call it his “damage ender” if you want.

@GalacticGeek

Other characters get greatly rewarded for getting their opponent locked out (with lots of damage against their opponent) - why can’t Aganos players do the same without penalty?

Eh, Aganos players are rewarded for lockouts. They can get 3-4 chunks for free, and if they want, a ton of corner push with shadow natural disaster. His reward “looks” a little different because it doesn’t say 60% damage under the combo, but he definitely gets rewarded in ways that help him win matches.

[GalacticGeek]

Regarding your last statement, @Infilament, while you’re right about how good the corner-push with shadow natural disaster is, putting Aganos into the corner (even on the “outside” of the corner - that is to say, not the 1 backed up into it) has always been kind of iffy for me. Sometimes it’s really good and other times, not so much (since having an opponent that close to you can be exceedingly dangerous, especially without chunks, and since all would take to put Aganos into the “inside” of said corner is a back throw from the opponent - and that’s happened to me quite often). Having chunks makes this situation a bit safer, but it still doesn’t help much against certain characters due to the decrease in speed with his attacks - he can lose chunks and get punished quickly due to the speed and proximity of his opponent’s attacks when compared to his.

As for the rest of your reply - thank you. It explains a lot. You’ve helped me better understand manuals and how they work, which is something I thought I understood (apparently I only ever understood the kind that replace ADs), but really didn’t. After your explanation, I kind of look at manuals as being similar to the manuals in say, the Tony Hawk series of skateboarding games. In that game, their version of manuals could also be used to “link” chains of moves together. Also, since I’ve played KI for so long, I’ve experienced every single example you’ve given in your reply online - but when it happened, I always just considered it being normals or resets (as in the case of manuals after enders, such as HP laser sword juggle into f+HK with Jago or with linking light manuals after heavy ADs) and special moves (Jago’s DP into DP shenanigans), not manuals.

That being said, there’s a lot of questions from my previous post that have yet to be answered or addressed, so if you or @TheKeits would kindly oblige, I’d appreciate it.

…and finally, Infil, how did you get such a deep and concrete understanding of fighting game mechanics when seemingly nobody on this God’s green Earth (besides the developers themselves) seems to have anywhere near such a firm grasp on them? And don’t tell me it’s because you’ve played fighting games for a long time - I’ve been doing that since I was about 5 (and I’m 31 years old now) and am still, like everyone else it seems, nowhere near your level of knowledge on the subject. Feel free to answer this (and other unrelated questions to the topic in this thread) in a PM, so this thread doesn’t continue to go off topic.

[Infilament]

@GalacticGeek

putting Aganos into the corner (even on the “outside” of the corner - that is to say, not the 1 backed up into it) has always been kind of iffy for me.

Sometimes the corner gets reversed on you (and in KI it can happen with more than just back throw, some characters have enders that switch sides), but it’s a risk worth taking. It’s not easy to get out of the corner, and I’d argue it’s probably the hardest vs an Aganos with chunks and a wall behind him. You’re probably going to just lose the round more often than you will fix the situation. Besides, if it’s easy to back throw someone into the corner, and it happens to you, feel free to do it to your opponent right back!

@GalacticGeek

I’ve experienced every single example you’ve given in your reply online - but when it happened, I always just considered it being normals or resets

Basically, a “manual” is anything that uses the neutral version of the move, but successfully combos from the previous move. The game (and my guide) tends to use the term “manual” to describe the very specific instance where you are doing a grounded combo and you link a normal after a linker, because it’s helpful to have an “official term” for that technique, but once you realize what a manual actually is, some people will expand the definition to include some other situations. Personally I like to use the word “link” when comboing air juggles to avoid this confusion. So after shadow rocks with Aganos, you can link a ruin attack. You should just be aware that some people will call this a “manual” or a “special move manual”.

Be careful using the word “reset”, it means something totally different. A reset is a dropped combo (often intentionally, but not always) that immediately turns back into another combo because the defense wasn’t blocking correctly. If the combo counter does not go back to 0, then you did not perform a reset. You are “resetting” the combo and starting a new one, trying to see if the opponent who is being hit has let his guard down and might be more susceptible to a surprise overhead or something. KI resets are really good, because you get to keep your white life (and, therefore, your ender level) between combos and the first attack of your reset does 2x as much damage as normal. Also, they are hard to defend against because you are probably looking for something to combo break, not trying to block a mixup; your mental stack will probably not be able to keep up.

@GalacticGeek

That being said, there’s a lot of questions from my previous post that have yet to be answered or addressed,

Not sure which questions you’re talking about, feel free to ask them again and I’ll respond.

@GalacticGeek

…and finally, Infil, how did you get such a deep and concrete understanding of fighting game mechanics when seemingly nobody on this God’s green Earth (besides the developers themselves) seems to have anywhere near such a firm grasp on them? And don’t tell me it’s because you’ve played fighting games for a long time - I’ve been doing that since I was about 5 (and I’m 31 years old now) and am still, like everyone else it seems, nowhere near your level of knowledge on the subject.

Heh, well, I appreciate the kind words, but I’m certainly not the only person around that understands fighting games. There are many others on these forums who could have answered your questions, I just got here first, that’s all. I have played a lot of different fighting games, though, and whenever I choose to play a game, I study it pretty deeply, so I have pretty strong knowledge of the genre. I also have several real life friends that have a passion for fighting games, so we talk theory and mechanics often.

I also like to explain things to people, I guess? I work in academia and have a history of tutoring/teaching in a university setting, so this probably comes through a bit in how I describe concepts to people. I tend to be able to pick up exactly where someone is having difficulty understanding a topic and get to the point quickly. But I’m certainly not the only one around who can do this, I just refresh the forums more often than others, it would seem.

[GalacticGeek]

@GalacticGeek

On a side and slighty related, but also slightly unrelated note, I have a tendency to chunk up after using Aganos’ forward throw. When I do this, I don’t have much time to do anything else before the opponent can attack me again. However, I’ve recently discovered that if I have at least 1 chunk, I can put up a wall AND (for the most part) safely chunk up before most opponents can do anything (since it’s a hard knockdown - although I’m sure there are a few exceptions such as characters that can get across the screen quickly, like Riptor). Even if my opponent manages to hit me, most of the time it’s right after the chunk goes in and only 1 hit (or too slow for a 2nd follow-up hit), so I can immediately punish with a full combo.

@Infilament

The above was basically what went unanswered, although after re-reading it, I can see why - I failed to phrase it in the form of a question (oops)! Basically, what I want to know is: why, after a forward throw with Aganos, can I put up a wall (assuming I already have a chunk) and then rechunk before the enemy gets up faster than simply chunking up (with 1 or no chunks)? I understand that the speed of the moves will change, but all in all, if both moves are done 1 immediately after the other shouldn’t they finish at about the same time?

Scenario 1:
Aganos (sans chunks) performs a forward throw causing a hard knockdown to his opponent, and uses that time to re-chunk, but the enemy at that point is already up and about ready to attack.

Scenario 2:
Aganos (with 1 chunk) performs a forward throw causing a hard knockdown to his opponent, and uses that time to put up a wall and immediately re-chunk. In the time he does this, the enemy at that point is already up and about ready to attack.

In the latter scenario (#2), Aganos can do more in about the same span of time. WHY?

Why isn’t, say, re-chunking and then putting up a wall as fast as putting up a wall and then re-chunking after?

EDIT: I checked in practice mode - both moves only have startup frames (since they’re non-offensive moves). Putting up a wall is only 44 frames, but chunking up is 94 frames.

Looking at this, it’s obvious which is faster, but if I do both, why does it appear that doing the wall first and then chunking up is faster than chunking up and then putting up the wall? Is it because chunking up first adds additional frames to putting up the wall (since that’s what having more chunks does)?

[BigBadAndy]

@Infilament

Heh, well, I appreciate the kind words, but I’m certainly not the only person around that understands fighting games.

Your modesty is very admirable, and not to hijack the thread, but you deserve a bit more credit than that.

Sure, lots of people understand fighting games and can play them at a high level. But most of them couldn’t explain, on paper, WHY the things they do work. Further, just knowing how something works isn’t enough. Lots of experts are completely unable to communicate despite their expert knowledge. There are plenty of people that might have one or even two of these qualities, but all three together is a rare thing indeed. So, kudos to you. You contribute a TON to the community.

[Infilament]

@GalacticGeek

Basically, what I want to know is: why, after a forward throw with Aganos, can I put up a wall (assuming I already have a chunk) and then rechunk before the enemy gets up faster than simply chunking up (with 1 or no chunks)? I understand that the speed of the moves will change, but all in all, if both moves are done 1 immediately after the other shouldn’t they finish at about the same time?

Still not entirely sure what you’re asking. If you forward throw with Aganos (with 1 chunk already), you have enough time to get a chunk safely. If you forward throw with 1 chunk, but then put up a wall and then try to chunk up after, it’s unsafe. Your opponent will be able to punish you.

As for the order of whether you should chunk up first or second, you always want to do it second because your moves get slower when you hold more chunks. If Aganos is holding 1 chunk, he could try to place a wall and get a chunk back in two ways:

• place the wall first (done at 1 chunk speed) and grab your chunk back (done at 0 chunk speed)
• grab your chunk (done at 1 chunk speed) and place the wall after (done at 2 chunk speed)

Because grabbing the chunk is the most time consuming operation, it’s a huge difference doing it at 0 chunk or 1 chunk speed. And, of course, placing the wall is also slower the second way, so it’s a double whammy.

@BigBadAndy

So, kudos to you. You contribute a TON to the community.

Well, thanks for the kind words. I’m not one to seek the limelight or a bunch of praise, but it’s nice to know that occasionally some of the big walls of text I write will be read.

[IronmanSS]

SMH - how is this Not Fixed yet!?! It’s been a reported bug since S2 Story mode was released. Its like there’s no reward to completing story mode. I mean, the only purpose to completing the story mode “missions” is to unlock that achievement - why would you beat _______ on Kyle difficulty with “100% throw break” efficiency for no reward?

[JetstreamDan]

So when I go into Boosters it’s just an empty menu. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling KI already.

[FallofSeraphs76]

Me too…one of the Devs is looking in to it…said it may be a regional issue. They are trying to figure it out.
Let JBailley know where your at so he can look into it
@GoogleMyName

[zerowhitemonkey]

My problem with KI Gold and xp boosters blank seems to have solved by itself.
From Yesterday night, I have again 7500 KI Gold and I can see three options to choose in the xp boosters page.

[XStanTheManX]

Regarding bounties, anyone having issues getting into it? When i press why Y button the screen freezes and a loud buzz sounds goes on for 15 seconds, then goes back to the XBox One main menu. I can’t play my bounties. Please Keits, fix this issue.

[FallofSeraphs76]

I haven’t had this issue…but some are having the FREEZE up issue in Shadows in different areas of the Shadow lab.
Usually happens to me in Survival when the ladder runs out of opponents or a shadow has been deleted but is trying to upload

[DraconianMith]

@rukizzel I don’t know how to break this tragic news…but the Update did not fix Sabrewulf’s stage in my copy, and this one is gonna hurt…but…Riptor can no longer do Primal Linkers after a Manual X___X

[SmoothWhiteDuck]

Yes I reported that in the bugs section I hope you do too! Its pretty upsetting considering that it is quite a viable option and something I use quite often.

I proved it by trying HP manual into HP primal linker, and instead got the second hit of HP flame as if it were blocked.

[Marbledecker]

@Infilament

• Hisako can do instinct combos using medium and heavy air ORZ now (in case you didn’t know, beforehand, if she wanted to do multiple air ORZ in a row, they ALL had to be the light version because it was the only one that caused enough hit stun). This will make her harder to break in instinct but IMO you can still react to the versions based on distance traveled and where she hits your character.

This is totally great for Hisako, based solely on the spacing differences between L/M/H versions of TK-ORZ. More possibilities abound. Time to hit the lab hard.

[SamoKuma]

Solution 1 : They don’t care about the poor dozens of foo… I’m mean players like us frustrated by the situations. After all, KI comunity is big enough :koff: why care ?

Solution 2 : They screwed it so bad they don’t know how to fix.

I don’t really know which one i “prefer”. But as a die hard supporter since day one of the game, i quite disapointed by this behaviour.

[rukizzel]

@DraconianMith

@rukizzel I don’t know how to break this tragic news…but the Update did not fix Sabrewulf’s stage in my copy, and this one is gonna hurt…but…Riptor can no longer do Primal Linkers after a Manual X___X

Thanks for the heads up. Will definitely get it looked in to!

[SithLordEDP]

It definitely is a bug but there is a benefit to it, the follow up flame attacks are all unbreakable, and since you can go into them off any heavy manual you can stick a good 10% extra free damage at the end of your combos or do 30%+ one chance breaks. Plus if your opponents do lock themselves out thinking the flame attacks are breakable heavies you can reenter the combo system with a normal double or linker. This actually seems like quite a useful bug imo.

[GalacticGeek]

@SithLordEDP

It definitely is a bug but there is a benefit to it, the follow up flame attacks are all unbreakable, and since you can go into them off any heavy manual you can stick a good 10% extra free damage at the end of your combos or do 30%+ one chance breaks. Plus if your opponents do lock themselves out thinking the flame attacks are breakable heavies you can reenter the combo system with a normal double or linker. This actually seems like quite a useful bug imo.

…but it’s still a bug, and more than that, a bug that doesn’t follow combo rules, so that means that it’s a bug that will likely be fixed. It’s broken through and through, because you can’t break something that you’re supposed to be able to break, which means it’s unbalanced and makes for easy lock-out/counter-breaker bait into massive damage and all starting with a 1-chance break?

No thank you.

Devs, please fix this glaring bug.

[DraconianMith]

Also it’s unscaled damage. So Riptor in Instinct being able to do her Fire Chain multiple times is guranteed 40% unscaled damage. I didn’t even know it was unbreakable.

Did I mention that instead of her Fire Linker you actually get the Entire Flame Chain off a HP manual?