Orchid Becoming Degenerate. Open Up Some Options

Game Suggestions & Feedback
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This thread is specifically aimed towards the developers otherwise I’d put it in the Orchid subforums but it’s overall general message is feedback. Also other Orchid players feel free to chime in and give your thoughts as well.

My Question Proposed: What are the chances of Orchid’s Air Throw becoming unbreakable again?

Here are the developer comments from the 3.1.5 patch notes in which this change was implemented: (“This lead to a lot of unbreakable damage for the last 2 years of play. Now that we’ve developed tech to allow air grabs and anti-air grabs that don’t end combos to be breakable within the combo system for Gargos, we’ve added this tech to Orchid to bring her more in line. Orchid players still have her new air target combos that continue juggles to mix in with her air throw combos to keep opponents guessing and lock them out.”)

I completely understand the design philosophy behind this change which is keep unbreakable situations out the game that lead to a lot of free damage; as a result though I feel this has left Orchid to be a very degenerate style of play character that relies on the same thing over and over again, similar to Tusk in which no one used anything but stagger ender. While I mostly feel she is in a great spot right now balance wise, this one change has left a lot of her other tools rendered unnecessary or widely unused. I feel there are other opportunities to explore and consider with her air throw that I will discuss later in this post.

Previously in S2 Flick Flack ender was the useless ender and we saw nothing but Itch-Ni-San ender because it lead to all of her best setups. Now in S3 it’s the complete opposite, everyone favors Flick Flack ender and never use Itchi-ni-San ender. This is because the player will always have to take unnecessary risks and give their opponent break opportunities for an inferior benefit. Flick Flack ender does more damage, provides an ambiguous cross-up, 2 safe grenade high-low setups, and gives 0 break opportunities. The argument here is why would you ever go for air throw or target combos when there is no reason to. Competitive players like to play by taking as few risks as possible so why would I ever take a risk of doing air throw or target combos and have to play 50/50s instead of just going for more damage and guaranteed oki? Even if you have meter to cash out the net gain is minuscule, perhaps if her air normals built more PD.

In the developer comments posted above, they explained that Orchid players should try and take advantage of her air target combos for increased mix up opportunities to lock out their opponents but what is the mixup here? Air throw can be broken on reaction and her target combos always end in heavy resulting in more 50/50s. No matter which one I do the opponent can react by seeing the first hit and waiting for the second hit (heavy) to break or if I do air throw just break anyways; meanwhile why do I have to take a giant risk to counter break here when I could of avoided all the inherent risk and gotten more damage and free oki doing Flick Flick ender? While her juggles can be fun they just aren’t worth the hassle for such little result. I think it’s also important to note that even if the Orchid player wanted to juggle he could do it after HDK ender as well basically making launcher ender useless.

Honestly I don’t really feel her air throw being unbreakable again would really provide any net gain to her overall power instead just opens up other play styles and options. If left unchanged we will see nothing but Flick Flack ender for the foreseeable future.

  • Some ideas I had as a result of reverting this change and making it unbreakable again is to make it inflict 0 damage for the throw itself. Anything after it such as a normal or any juggle options would all still be breakable but this inherently allows her another option.

  • Another is keep her air throw breakable but instead make it a real recapture inside of combo instead of a ground bounce. While she would still have to take a risk on the 50/50 the net result would actually be worth the risk because it can lead to more damage or another setup. There is no benefit as of now for taking a risk on the air throw because her juggles just do no damage and don’t lead to anything else.

  • Last idea would be to keep air throw breakable but make her juggles hit much harder similar to Kim’s Dragon Kicks in which her cash outs would be worth the meter. Her juggles are extremely fun but not rewarding at all and quite frankly a waste of resources and time.

  • Someone else proposed to me the idea of making air throw build more KV but as a result that would just kill her juggle opportunities entirely which I’m sure is something they don’t want at all.

Orchid is a great footsie character but is mostly known for her setups and vortex. I want her to be more versatile and have more styles of play and while it may not seem like it making her throw breakable was a gigantic change which has lead to this degenerate style of play she is currently in.

Thoughts?

In summary, I want Orchid’s Flick Flack ender nerfed, and airthrow to be unbreakable.
So basically a burf.

I THINK ORCHID IS BALANCED!! ( I type this in caps because people know i love to beg for buffs )
This is a really small ask, and probably won’t happen but oh well you never know until you try.

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At what points are Orchids air throw breakable?only after the launcher? Or at any time? I never knew it was breakable so Ive been eating air throws for a while now. lol
I remember when this change was made but I totally forgot about it as I rarely cross paths with any Orchids online higher than silver tier.

So when can I break the throw?

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Yep. Been that way since the Gargos update.

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As she grabs you…it’s basically you tech-ing her grab

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Ahhhh OK…so its not a breaker…its a tech? So you cant lock out on it or counter break it?

Why is LCD calling it a break then? That’s misleading.

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It’s a break

@DarkLrdChuckles means that SEEMS like teching the grab

But it’s a break, it can be broken with lights, and can be counter breaked

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Ok so can someone explain the exact specifics of when and how its break able. Is it only break able after a launcher? Or is it break able with just a naked jump/ throw?

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It’s breakable if performed during a combo. Example: launcher ender into air grab(breakable, since any follow up after the ender is breakable)
Not breakable if performed raw. Example: Both of you jump, and then she brabs you. Not breakable

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thank you

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I maybe should’ve gone into a little more detail in explaining what I meant.(My bad)

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I know my man :wink:

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It’s a gamble…To break or not to break? With Orchid having some nice damage it’s something you must consider. I come across Killer Orchids. They usually go pretty turtle against me. I hate when they do that, but it looks it’s their style. However a good Orchid with good pressure is, for me, scarier than a turtling one.

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She was played degenerately in S2 as well, just with air throw->blowout juggle->grenade toss as the setup of choice. People play Orchid as a vortex monster because that’s how they want to play her - the only difference now is that flik flak gives them the setup they crave instead of launcher->air throw. The two styles are functionally the same.

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I think a more likely scenario would be that they decrease the flick-flak ender’s damage and raise the damage of the other one.

IDK. It just seems to me that IG’s style of balancing in these cases (assuming that hey even see a problem) would be to balance damage around the risk reward options.

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Correct, this was my point although you said it better than I. They did their best to try and do away with this guaranteed setup play style we saw in S2, but unfortunately they inadvertently brought it back in with Flick Flack ender. Air throw being breakable just discourages the use of anything else at the moment because she gets all of her best stuff off that one ender no matter what without the risk her others tool bring which aren’t nearly as good. I want it to be that Orchid players can choose to dive into other tools like juggles and launcher ender but as of now there is simply no reason too.

The risk reward/reward of doing anything but Flick Flack ender just isn’t there right now and should be re-evaluated.

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Using it as a counter breaker setup comes to mind. Yes I know that you don’t like to counter break, but that does not stop this from being a good setup in its own way.

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My thoughts are as follows. I personally enjoy the combo/counter break mind game that the air throw is. It can lead to big damage if your counter is successful and stacked with meter. I’m willing to take the break as well to keep that big damage. I also enjoy the flick flack ender in its current state. If I want to keep screen position and go for setup I use INS ender(launcher) or blockade ender(wall-bounce) and decide accordingly what to do(air grab, cr.HP, air targets, grenade, ect.) If I don’t care about screen positioning, then flick flack ender is good but not necessarily go to depending on how much life the opponent has or what setup I feel is necessary at the time(wall bounce, launch, or damage). I don’t believe it is “guaranteed” okizeme seeing that you have the option to let the opponent drop and go for setup, or opponents can predict what is coming and break or block/punish accordingly. Moving on, I did enjoy the air throw being unbreakable, but the reason they took it out was because the corner double air grab juggles into one chance breaks were getting a little ridiculous on the potential damage. I think she takes more thought to be effective with her than this post is letting out and that she isn’t degenerate. If anything needs to be tweaked on her its her ground bounce consistency. In closing, I think she is fine how she is but I liked her then as well. Much love to LCD and respect to his thoughts on this topic. I have to respectfully disagree. Perhaps i’m one of the degenerates :stuck_out_tongue:

Final thought is she can’t be more degenerate than some other things/playstyles/characters that are in the game so I’m thinking let the current build of her brew a little longer.
-CB

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Hm. I think you err in assuming that IG wanted to do away with set play at all. The ender damage system changes actually encourage it to a certain extent, and that has always been the case in S3. HKD enders all guarantee set play, and they also grant the second best flat damage out of all your options. If IG was trying to eliminate vortex play, they weren’t trying very hard. Any character with a HKD ender can be played super setup heavy, and this is very much by design.

However, I think the assignation of risk and reward off any of these options is very much subjective. You place very little in the strength of an obvious break point in your post-ender setup that stacks on additional PD. I do not. I think @lCharlieboy has the correct perspective on this - there is great utility and opportunity in throwing someone an easy breaker and seeing how they respond. If you’re broken and didn’t counter, that tells you something, if they let it rock it tells you something (in addition to your additional PD and oki), and if you go for a counter and they don’t bite that tells you something else. There is reward to be had even if you don’t get the correct read, and if you are correct you get the chance to take a significant portion of their lifebar, if not the bar itself. That is not nothing. You as the player are the one who determines what each risk is worth to you; it is your personal preference that says you value guaranteed oki above any potential greater rewards to be gleaned from additional PD or a counterbreak. And that’s fine. I think the mistake comes in when you say there is “no point” in doing those other enders, ever, as if there is some mathematical proof that validates this as always the very best option.

I play Hisako. That means I’m generally going for HKD’s, if you’re in the corner I’m likely to wallsplat you, and if I can kill you I’m going for damage. But against certain characters or players, maybe I don’t go for that wallsplat in the corner. Maybe I wallsplat->light influence for the setup and wrath refill; maybe I do a low-level influence ender for the damage plus a milder setup. There is always potentially great reward for me doing the wallsplat - there is literally nothing that you can do that I could not punish you for if I have the read. But sometimes I value the safety of my next oki opportunity more than my potential corner reset. That doesn’t mean the risk/reward of the wall splat is skewed poorly though - it just means that I as a player value different options at different levels depending on a host of factors. The option has significant upside if I wish to chance being wrong.

Orchid’s launcher ender is similar - it might not always be the best option, but it is an incredibly powerful one if you’re ok with putting your next setup on the line. It’s not the game’s fault that you are uncomfortable with any risk of being wrong. Sometimes I’ll wallsplat Fulgore and eat a DP as I try to reset him; sometimes I counter his DP and get to play the rest of the match with him afraid to ever reversal again. There’s a lot of upside to me being right on that reset, but I have to chance being wrong to take hold of it. Orchid doesn’t need an unbreakable throw for people to see her other enders. She just needs players who are fine with incurring a little risk to get either data or damage.

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This.

I use a lot of launcher enders as CB’s bait. Aganos doesn’t have the chance, but I like going into a 30% launcher instead a 40% damage to get a CB and go for another 40%, achieving a 70% combo.

Not considering that a launcher ender is a great bait/info collector from our opponents breaking tendencies is a mistake

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I can’t agree with LCD strong enough. The point is the launcher ender is not worth the risk in any way shape or form over hard knockdown ender. Why does TJ & Wulf get true recaps but are the exception to the rule? They all have considerable damage in comparison to Orchid.

Aside from damage ender at level 3-4 I’ll just use this all day and it drives people nuts… But that is the play IG is pushing with this Character in S3.

Oh and I agree with CharlieBoyee, if IG isn’t going to tweak her air throw then at least make her flick flak bounces more consistent.