Option Selects in KI

General Discussion
81

Correct.

To further add to his post for people who are still confused by the idea, anything is an option select if you can repeat the exact same input sequence and different things happen depending on how the characters are interacting.

In Lycan’s case, he is inputting wind kick with a particular timing so that the game registers the outcome differently depending on what Spinal is doing (in this case, auto-correcting wind kick).

In some cases you will do “tricky” inputs that are designed to cover multiple situations by forcing the game to ignore the input you don’t want, but a lot of them don’t need that. A safe jump, for example, is just doing a jumping attack with a very specific timing (while holding block), and nothing more.

82

ITT: Players newly discover a thing that’s been around for decades and freak out like it was discovered last week.

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83

Why is everyone saying that it doesnt matter just because we dont know about it?

That is the worst excuse ever. it actually makes it WORSE. People are INVISIBLY exploiting the game by setting up RISK-LESS pressure that catches multiple wakeup options with no actual planning involved.

If you applied this same logic to other points of the game, like the breaker system, you guys would be freaking out! Just because most people cant see it does not make it OK. That just creates an even further gap between mid-tier and high-tier players. A gap that cant be crossed by planning and reactions, only by developinhg your own versions of the same exploit.

84

We know about it, though. Have known about it for years. Now we’re telling you so you know about it too!

There are many ways that the top players are ahead of mid-tier players. Planning and reactions are among them, but not the only ways. Also, I don’t know what your definition of “planning” is if it doesn’t include things like figuring out basic option selects.

85

Am i really not understanding this?

Please, this is my last question.

This is what i understand:

—Without option selects:
-You must predict how they will react to certain situations, and use their playstyle data you have learned through the match to choose the best pressure option.

—With option selects:
If you happen to be playing a certain matchup, your character may have an option select that allows you mindlessly input a certain series of buttons, and the game will automatically sort the inputs out in a way that guarantees you stop 100% (or close to it) of your opponents options, all while being totally safe, and not requiring you to think about mind-games at all.

#And people are OK with this?

86

Not quite: you’ll get one chance at a basic pressure string that might cover one additional option, but not “all” options. And usually you have to sacrifice a mixup to do so. Most option selects are defeated by blocking, because the OSes are designed to trigger when you do something other than blocking. Very rarely will you be able to cover literally all of a character’s options. It happens sometimes (it was common in SFIV for example), but rarely.

But you are talking about a very specific class of option selects here. You seem offended by the basic premise of an option select… that is, sometimes, the same input can cover multiple situations. There is nothing wrong with this concept, and it’s actually mandatory for fighting games to feel good when you play.

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87

The “feel good concept” is still absolutely flying over my head. I dont understand how awarding mashing is a good thing. But im done. Ive taken enough of peoples time with this.

Im going to go find some Omen Option selects.

And when i get messages asking me how i am SUCH A BAMF, i will have to say: “I learned about this exploit that lets me hit you no matter what you try, You should learn it too.”

88

You could also tell them “if you just block, nothing will happen.”

I can give you some examples of what would be bad about the infinite input buffer (and also some new example OSes that would crop up) if you want.

89

At this point, i am ready to throw in the towel.

I accept that i just dont get it.

I will adapt.

90

Well, let me give you one example that should be pretty easy to understand.

Let’s assume that if you press a button in a situation where the game would ignore it, it instead puts it in a buffer and executes it the first possible frame it is allowed. This seems to be what you’ve proposed, right?

Okay, now let’s consider you and your opponent are in close quarters and you’re both blocking. Then, you both try to attack at the same time, but one of you is slightly later than the other, so P1 launches an attack at P2, who blocks it and then presses jab 1 or 2 frames after blocking. In your new situation, that means that P2’s jab is going to come out the very next frame he is not in block stun.

Now… what happens if P1 cancels his attack into a shadow move? P2 thinks to himself “aha, I’m blocking, I’ll just shadow counter and we’ll be good to go”. But he can’t, because he has an input queued up. He presses shadow counter and nothing comes out, because it goes behind his jab in the buffer. As soon as he leaves block stun after the shadow move, P2 confusingly gets jab, then a medium punch (his shadow counter attempt). Even worse, if he didn’t input a jab and instead input something like… wind kick, after block stun ends he will get something like wind kick xx counter breaker (if the opponent is hit by wind kick).

If you say “well, the solution to this problem is simple, just accept the shadow counter input before applying the rest of the buffer”, then you have created an option select. I pressed jab, but it didn’t come out, and then I did some other sequence of inputs that takes priority over it. And it’s effectively not really any different than what we have right now, except you have a system that means reversals are trivial and will be input by accident often.

91

OK, so that is where the mis-understanding happened.

I dont want an infinite buffer on every type of stun. I want an infinite buffer on the attacking party, that way when they make an offense, they are COMMITTED to every button they press/mash.

does this sound better?
would this work?

92

It’s still an option select, though. The same input will trigger two different outcomes, depending on whether the opponent blocked or not.

Let’s say … I do a special move opener that is +1 on block, and then try to do a light auto-double. On hit, I get my auto-double, that’s great. On block, I’m left at +1 and then I get a frame-perfect jab as a frame trap that my opponent can’t challenge at all. As an attacker, I’m happy with both outcomes, and as a defender, you’re screwed either way.

This is an example of a new option select that only exists with your system (right now, the offense has to perfectly time the jab after the blocked move, as opposed to the game automatically doing it for them only when it is beneficial).

Basically, the problem is this; the guy pressed jab and the game couldn’t do a jab at that time. What do you do with that input? Do you ignore it? Do you play it back later? Both of these cases are their own type of option selects, with their own side effects. Typically, ignoring it is a better choice because the game would otherwise feel “laggy” (you pressed the button a second ago, but it finally comes out now?), and it also means you don’t get frame-perfect offense for free.

And the above paragraph is why you can’t get rid of option selects in games. As long as there are cases where a person can press a button that the game doesn’t accept, there will always be option selects.

93

Or just mash it out. Which is what happens 99% of the time. So the current system already gives close-to-perfect frame traps.

With my system, you will have to react to the opponent getting hit or KNOW that they will get hit, then decide what to do next. If you just mash Jab, you will then Lock yourself into doing multiple jabs in a row. (Then getting the frame-perfect jab becomes a mashing punishment, instead of a reward.)

This rewards correct punishes, and careful reactions, while punishing mashing.

(just want to say:
Sorry if i am getting annoying. I am fueled by fear, and a feeling of betrayal.)

94

Using a move that frame traps all non-invincible options, with guaranteed frame-perfect timing, is never a “punishment” IMO. It will always be a reward.

Basically, you are opening up “mashing” players to get guaranteed, perfect offense without any hope of ever failing. You are basically letting them pre-program a macro that the computer will play back with perfect precision at all times. Not only can players with knowledge of the system abuse this pretty easily, but the game will feel laggy because stuff you input 5 seconds ago is still coming out.

If you trust my judgment about how fighting games work, then you can trust that you have nothing to worry about here.

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95

You can already do this now though. By just mashing Jab Jab, wind kick, jab jab, wind kick, jab jab, wind kick. The only escape is a back-dash, or reversal.

That would not change, right?

96

You can do that, but you need some semblance of timing. If you are quite literally mashing jab, it won’t always come out on the 1st possible frame.

With your system, I could input 15 jab + wind kick combinations in about 4 seconds, go make a sandwich, and then come back and watch you still blocking them. I hope it’s clear why this particular behavior wouldn’t be desired, not only for balance, but also just on a general “feel” level. It doesn’t feel good when your character starts doing things on its own and you have no idea when it will stop.

97

Hahaha.

One reversal, and its over though. Then they get to do combos WITH counter hit damage for the next ten minutes.

But i understand how it would mess up low-tier play.

UGH!

I just want ONE “blanket fix” that would at least cut down on the number of OS’s in the game.

If SFIV would just register TOTALLY invalid inputs as “nothing”, that would fix MOST of the OS’s.

98

KI is already a game that doesn’t rely on a bunch of OS knowledge to do well. It’s one of the lesser OS-intensive games I’ve played, just based on how the game’s systems are built and how the flow of the game works.

I think you’re overestimating the amount of OSes that would be fixed by not allowing totally invalid inputs. A lot of SF OSes are delayed by a frame or two, making them perfectly valid inputs on their own a lot of the time.

I think your worry is that option selects end up being a magic bullet, a “you are now dead and you can’t possibly escape” scenario. KI has no such option selects at all, and most meaningful option selects tend to cover one specific option you are hoping your opponent does (ie, backdash, or reversal), but not the others. So you might “option select against backdash” during your pressure string, but if the opponent reversals, you get hit. And if he just blocks, none of your option selects trigger and then it just looks like a normal pressure string that you have seen 1000 times.

Option selects are not a cheat code that will kill your opponent once you’re told the dirty little secret. They’re just a small extra layer that helps offense or defense a little bit. You’ve been watching KI for 2 years and have seen hundreds of option selects being used and you didn’t notice, so they can’t be that bad, right?

Alright, I’m heading out for now. Seriously, don’t stress about this. Nothing bad, unexpected, or unusual is happening right now.

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99

In the comments of the video an user asks what happens.

PaulB answered that the character escapes the OS. Probably Hisako will wiff the counter making her punishable.

100

Like it was said earlier, this “blanket fix” you’re talking about simply doesn’t exist. No matter what path you prescribe to the devs to take in order to fix this issue, it merely changes how they are used, and if they actually took the suggestions you proposed earlier into consideration, the devastation would probably greater. @Infilament’s right on top of this argument, and I would say you should trust his judgment.

I think you’re afraid of them because in all honesty, since you’ve never used them for yourself, I think you highly overestimate their efficacy in actual play. One of those, “I don’t understand it, therefore I fear it” kind of things. It’s understandable to be afraid of the unknown, but that’s when you make the effort to understand it, and once you do, you’ll begin to see your fear of this is quite unfounded. OS’s in many cases eliminate one or two options, or trigger a more desirable outcome to a scenario, but aren’t so much the “rigged outcome” you are meant to believe they are.

So I would suggest you start looking for some with Omen, it’ll really up your game, but more so, it will help you begin to build an understanding of what they are and how they are used. You’ll find you can still be punished for some things, and your offense isn’t going to be flawless with them. There’s no mindlessly mashing out an OS to eliminate all options. Timing and thought are important to these just as much as there is to any mixup game.

Because this avenue has been unknown to you until now, this is the perfect time for you to begin to understand them, not demand it be “patched out”. Even the developers take the time to understand these option selects and things to make such important judgment calls in order to eliminate them or keep them in.[quote=“MrxFlutterShy, post:87, topic:8777”]
And when i get messages asking me how i am SUCH A BAMF, i will have to say: “I learned about this exploit that lets me hit you no matter what you try, You should learn it too.”
[/quote]

If they can tell you’re using an option select, chances are they’ll know how to beat it. If they have that kind of knowledge of what you are doing, they are probably no beginner or short sighted intermediate who doesn’t know how to deal with what you are doing. They are probably not the type to complain, or even fall for it, at least more than once.

To be honest, in the middle of a match, they WON’T be able to tell you’re using it at all. The mind is too focused on counter offensive and move planning to bother figuring out such a technical move. The only real way to tell if you were using one at all would be to review the game footage in replay and turn on the inputs. When you see a string of inputs that doesn’t make sense, but is repeated multiple times, say like a stray HK input with the same timing over and over, even though it’s not doing anything, there may be an OS at work, but then you have to take it to the lab and test it.

Really though, most OS’s tend to punish backdashes and stop non-invincible reversals, stuff mash happy people do all the time.

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