OS doesn’t remove mind games. It eliminates an option or two, but they all have their flaws, and you even do them without realizing it at times.[quote=“MrxFlutterShy, post:59, topic:8777”]
Option selects can COMPLETELY remove the “wakeup game” in some match ups, and that is unacceptable.
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It what particular instance has this occurred? At this point, no setup like that exists, and you are making a complete hypothetical out of the situation. The Hisako OS is tricky but it’s not unbeatable. Evasive teleport specials could hold potential to turn this against her, and he didn’t even cover as to whether or not the backdash is caught by this or not.
OS Tech limits options, but you still have to think about what you are doing as far as an offense.
At any rate, like @Infilament suggested to me earlier with the Ruin Instinct Cancel OS, if you haven’t noticed it happening to you till now, chances are you haven’t been impacted by it very much.
Actually, I just hit the lab, and the range on st. HK for the OS is not that impressive for the meaty, at least not in comparison to her cr.MK. However, looking at the frame data of the meaty st. HK, the attack only has 3 active frames, and all backdashes have at least 7 fully invincible frames if memory serves me right, so the outlined OS would most likely fail unless that character’s backdash is absolutely horrible, like Glacius and Aganos. Cinder and Jago would most likely be able dodge her and be at no worse position that anyone else recovering from hard knockdown.
He’s probably referring to something like the Sadira OS against TJ that I mentioned, where TJ’s options were basically (1) block, or (2) hit an insanely tight shadow counter.
But no @MrxFlutterShy, option selects (most of them anyway) do not remove all mind games. And interestingly enough (and a good example of why OS’s would in practice be difficult to completely eliminate), your “solution” wouldn’t actually fix the Sadira option select that I mentioned above. The game would still read my QCF+LP as the next move, and if it encountered a situation where TJ didn’t get hit, my demon blade would come and catch either his backdash or roll recovery. So you would have made the game remarkably more difficult to play with a punitive buffering system, and still left in a setup that could completely lock down a S2 TJ on wakeup.
Seriously guys - you are not getting beaten or challenged unfairly by a bunch of secret tech monsters that have been lurking in Ranked and Exhibition. Like 90% of the current KI population (and I feel that’s probably generous) probably has no idea what an option select even is, and have probably never done an intentional one in all their playtime with the game. Just woosah…it’s gonna be all right
I agree, I mean even though Paul B is a really good KI player, he’s not the premier player. Just cause he may use an option select doesnt mean it’s some type of unfair advantage.
Nah, that one has existed in the game as long as TJ’s been around
She can technically do it to anyone in the cast (and always could) - it’s just especially useful against TJ because he had the unique situation going on where he had no invincible reversal, but could just roll out from under just about anything Sadira tried to do to him on wakeup. So that OS was a great way to force TJ to stop being so degenerate on wakeup (got knocked down, guess I’ll roll ) and start playing defense like a normal human being.
Speaking of CAM, CAM did have option selects that were arguably too beneficial to users of CAM, and so they changed CAM to remove them. If someone finds an OS that is too strong it’ll get removed, but the existing ones are perfectly fine, no need to start saying we need to change the entire way the game is built to function to remove them.
Based on the way that @Sajam explains option selects in this video, I’ve been subconsciously doing little “option selects” without ever actually knowing what an option select is.
If an option select involves inputting a move while another move I happening, and then it only comes out in an applicable situation, then that kinda applies to most combo stuff, in a basic sense. I’ll hit a button multiple times after executing a special in neutral to make sure I get the auto double or linker on hit, sometimes doing multiple inputs of the same special move (i.e. Medium Wind Kick) to do the follow up autos and linkers if I land an opener as a sort of confirmation that I’ve actually opened them up.
I think option selects as a concept aren’t necessarily evil. I mean, a lot of them are just “if this hits, it combos. If it whiffs or gets blocked, you’re stuck in the recovery.” If there’s something that allows for something that truly turns out to be broken or OP then it should be patched out, but on the whole it sounds like most of the options selects in KI are just buffering moves and hoping they combo.
Option selecting is a term for the mis-use of the buffer system and the priority system. I dont want those systems gone. The solutions i proposed would still allow you to mash if you wanted to make sure an auto double will come out. But i want unnecessary inputs to be dis-allowed, and for every move to be FORCED out if you are mashing.
This doesn’t eliminate several OSes off the top of my head (for example, safe jumping is an OS), but I guarantee you, you would quit the game over how terrible it would feel to play, and probably every single time you leave block stun or rise from a knockdown, your character will take some action you didn’t want.
You will get accidental inputs all over the place. I think you’d be surprised at how much of your inputs are being checked by the game’s generous input buffer so that the game is actually enjoyable to play. If they force you to be a mind reader, your character will be impossible to control.
In the end, most OSes are harmless (the ones that aren’t are usually a result of poorly thought out game mechanics and need a fix specific to the root cause). In fact, I’d go even farther and say that most OSes are beneficial to the game, not detrimental. They’ve been around for 25 years and they haven’t killed fighting games yet. Don’t worry too much about it.
And im NOT asking that the buffer system be taken out.
Most its common uses would not be affected by the changes i proposed. You can still input early, and still mash while in stun, and still have some shaky timing, but you couldn’t get away with NOT HAVING A CLUE what will happen next. That is the WHOLE point of frame data. Some moves are more dangerous, but give you extra time for reactions, planning, and conversions, while some are quick, and take a true master to be able to analyze the situation as it happens. You should not be able to make an invalid input, and not at LEAST be punished for being wrong.
Based on the SFV vids i watched above, my simple fix of not allowing inputs that are NEVER valid to “whiff” would fix over Half of the Option Selects alone.
…and you say Aganos players have been using it this whole time?
I sure haven’t!
Do you have any idea how many times I’ve had an accidental ruin come out for reasons unknown when they weren’t supposed to? And I could’ve made it safe with an instinct cancel!?
You guys may say that knowing how to use and actually using option selects won’t necessarily make you a better player, but for me, this very example is proof that that is not true.
Now knowing this particular option select WILL make me a better player. If I can take 1 of the most unsafest moves in the game and make it safe on block with instinct AND get a peacemaker(s) in the process for ranged mixups, projectiles, walls, and/or chunks - I don’t know about you, but IMO, that is CRAZY good. How can you not see that as being incredibly good (or even potentially broken)!?
EDIT: I just tested this in the lab - in addition to all of the above benefits, on block, the instinct cancel off of the ruin even pushes the opponent back even further than normal, giving Aganos some much needed space. This is something I’ve been wanting to see more of ever since the devs took away the push-back on hit with the thrown peacemaker at the start of S3, so this makes me happy.
…but at the same time makes me feel like I wasn’t using Aganos to his fullest potential, which does NOT make me happy.
Well, you’re allowed to be scared if you want, but you’ve been playing against these option selects for 2 years already and you weren’t aware of it, nor has it impacted your enjoyment of the game. If you trust my judgment and opinion of fighting games, I’m telling you that none of these OSes are bad for the game and there is nothing to be worried about.
Yes, it is possible bad OSes could exist, and yes, strong OSes have made some games worse in the past. But that is definitely not true of basic things like input buffering, and the devs know which OSes (if found) would kill their game and they’ll do some work to remove them. I think you can rest safe here.
Your proposed input change (of stuff always coming out the 1st frame possible if it was input at a time when not allowed) basically amounts to having an infinite input buffer, and I’m saying that it would impact the game to the point of it being literally unplayable, and would only “fix” a handful (not all) of OSes. Your change is basically like bringing a tommy gun to kill the fly on the wall.
Also, I wanted to add that your infinite input buffer suggestion will add new OSes to the game that don’t currently exist. Can’t get away from them, friend.
You can instinct cancel virtually all moves on block, including Ruin. That is not an option select. If you haven’t been instinct cancelling blocked Ruins, then that’s something completely unrelated to option selects.
To be clear, the option select here is that Ruin is one of the few (probably the only?) move in the game that can be instinct canceled on block, but NOT on hit. So, you just always input instinct cancel and it works when you want it, and it doesn’t work when you don’t want it. Easy peasy.
But instinct canceling Ruin on block is not special behavior, is not broken, and is not related to OSes.
I never knew about it because pre-S3 I almost always instinct-cancelled off of combo-breakers, which is what I saw a lot of players doing.
I knew you could instinct cancel in most scenarios, like in neutral, mid-combo, mid-shadow move (which is something I NEVER do as I think it’s a waste of perfectly good shadow meter damage, - although I can certainly see its positive application here if the opponent tries to combo-break it), etc., but not after blocked moves. I thought that once a move was blocked, you were simply stuck in block stun and that you couldn’t instinct cancel as a result of that. I may have seen it performed on block by other players (and often to boot), but it simply never actually registered in my mind at how important and/or useful that actually was, since I already had a place in mind to use it (after the combo-breakers).
Heck, post-S3, I still most often use it after combo-breakers. It’s not canceled off of the combo-breaker or even immediate, like it was before (where I could cancel into it and then immediately hit them to the ground with the peacemaker’s d+HP), but I can still get that peacemaker in my hand as they’re hitting the ground or in the process of standing up, which still leaves them vulnerable enough for mixups.
Option Selects in KI have nothing to do with inputting two moves at the same time.
A Option Select covers one or more Options you or your opponent has - depending if your defender or attacker.
As example: You can OS Spinal Teleport on Wakeup with Jago by doing meaty st.mk and inputting a delayed medium windkick cancel. If he teleports behind you the windkick autocorrects and punishes him if he leleports in front the windkick covers this option by not autocorrecting - the same for back teleport. If he throws or backdashes he gets hit by the meaty st.mk into windkick opener. So he has to block or shadow teleport or skull cancel teleport or cross tele into shadow swordslash.
The game in this case autorrects the windkick. No tricky multiple inputs done - im just covering options the spinal player has.
A option Select covers multiple options the opponent or you have regardless which inputs are needed.
) and start playing defense like a normal human being.