New thought - Slight Reduction of Grab-animation Recovery

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Hey again people.

Here’s a little thing I’ve been thinking about for a few months…

The higher up I’ve been getting in the skill level in KI, the more I’ve realized how incredibly strong it is to neutral jump/crossup jump on your opponent’s wake up, or after them having block a jump in from you. The latter is what concerns me the most… imagine jumping on your opponent, and he/she blocks. Then what? - Neutral jump/crossup jump. Why? Because it will cleanly beat a Shadow Counter attempt, AND a grab tech attempt, AND often make a DP whiff.

So why is this a problem? The way I see it, the strength in neutral jumps is so high that it overshadows a ton of interesting pressure normals that exists in the cast.

Examples:

(“cl” means “close”, not “crouching”)

So… what’s my problem really? Well, what I find troubling is that the strength of jumps creates lazy, easy, and uninteresting approaches in connecting openers. We could use various interesting normals that are plus on hit and on block that could lead to cool manuals (on or without counter hit), but very often players opt to just neutral jump/crossup jump as okizeme or after a blocked jumpin, because a normal could get shadow countered, or even grabbed if you’re a bit off with your timing (which you shouldn’t be off course, but still). They can often make DPs whiff as well, making the jump approach even more strong.

Now, what I would like to see is a few frames faster recovery on grabs.
My reason for this is that, neutral jumps are already very strong to catch shadow counters with, and making DPs whiff… and having it be a complete counter for tech attempts AS WELL, makes it so that we see a lot more of this rather than “real” pressure with normals et.c.

A neutral jump punishing a shadow counter attempt is perfectly reasonable, but a grab should in my opinion recover just in time to allow a block/DP vs the jump normal. Jumping as a means of applying pressure is an “easy-way-out” kind of pressure technique, and shouldn’t be this encouraged.

Now, I do admit that I am maining a character with very poor anti air-options (Arbiter), so it’s possible my judgement is somewhat clouded… But I feel I see a lot of this boring-a$$ jump-pressure a bit too often and it cuts me inside to see how effective it can be.

Don’t mistake this for jump setups though; like ambiguous crossups and well-timed empty jump lows on opponent’s wake up on hard knockdowns - that’s something else.

I hope I’m getting through to at least a few of you.
What I want to see is more pressure normals in the offense-game, and less jumping… and I believe grabs recovering faster would make this more prominent.

Tell me what you think guys.

@Infilament @RFGCAtsumachi@ @CStyles45 @FinchoMatic @SneerfulWater57 @MnTLetalis @FallofSeraphs76 @MBABanemobius @STORM179 @IceWater714

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I’m sorry, but as someone who plays Kim Wu in addition to a bunch of characters that have big hitboxes, I can’t see the game doing that. Grabs are punishable on purpose, and the neutral jump pressure is strong as well as beatable, just like everything else.

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Lul I knew you would come in and disagree with me like always. :sunglasses:

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I disagree with you often? lol

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Yup about everything, everytime. :rofl:

I’m not saying grabs shouldn’t be punishable, I’m just saying we see them getting punished by jumps too often rather than normals… making many normals underused.

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Well that’s because grabs are 5 frames (fastest normal speed for any character) and they have priority over normals. And shimmying is something not a lot of people do in this game.

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Isn’t that how it’s supposed to work?

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That’s how throws are designed to work. Given how powerful they are there supposed to have a risk to them. Imagine if rash and omen could throw you with no risk involved. Throws having almost 0 risk is a thing people don’t like I’m sfv. Also arbiter has great air to airs to beat neutral jumps. Use them.

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For characters like Jago this is really strong…but floaty jumpers like Omen and Glacius it doesnt work quite as well. But you are right…it can be really frustrating when a Jago is really good at doing this. It can make you feel like WTF am I supposed to do except guess? Well, hope you guess right!

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I totally get where you’re coming from @INDIxion but having throws have that much recovery is super duper intentional as how great the reward is for a huge majority of the cast. It also plays a part in helping to balance certain character’s defensive options. Imagine how much stronger Gargos or Aganos, could become if they were able to whiff a throw and then immediately anti-air right after. It’d defeat the purpose of them intentionally having poor defense. Like how Zangief in SFV can throw whiff and lariat afterwards or command grab if the opponent doesn’t try to jump out of his setups. Just think of throws as being part of the deeper decision making layer sprinkled about KI’s meta.

I know that you suggest this because you’d want to be able to have some form of defensive capabilites if you make a bad read on to what your opponent throws out not just with Arbiter, but the cast entirely. I know you don’t want a change like this just for the sake of buffing Arbiter, but it would be too much of a buff to some characters entirely to warrant such a change.

You probably already know but if it sounds like I’m harping on you then please let me know. One of the best things to deal with in situations like this (not just for Arbiter but the cast as a whole) is to check your opponent that does this constantly with your fastest normal after they jump in. I know that has the potential of getting yourself blown up but it doesn’t hurt to test the waters and help condition the opponent into not jumping so much. With Arbiter, since his fastest normal is St.LK that means you’d be able to catch opponents jumping and put them into a Flip Out mixup with either overhead or command grab. If you still don’t feel confident in that, then there’s always d/f.HK which is a highly underrated anti-air as you can negative edge an input of it right after performing it. Outside of normals, there’s also Grenade which although it does hurt you, it gets the opponent off of you. Finally, there’s Shield which is an all around great move and possibly Arbiter’s best use of meter. It’s an anti that not only gets them off of you but also restores health :slight_smile:

I know you want this change as a way to make the game better in your eyes but there are already options to deal with the situations you’re in that just require a tiny bit more lab time to figure it out. I know you’re a smart dude and can find the solution!

Off-topic: I’d love to get a set in with yours and @KevBones10 Arbiter some day when I get time off work! I apologize to Kev as he asked me awhile back and I haven’t been able to fulfill his request yet due to work but I hope I can rectify that someday! :smiley:

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It would become a tick throw fest imo. Like sf5.

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Going off your point about sfv I play both birdie and Abigail in that game. I can get full combos off of whiffing a throw then anti airing the neutral jump lol. Something like that in ki, especially against characters with recapture would be just a big no.

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I play Abigail as well and it’s a pretty big ,“damned if you do, damned if you don’t” for the opponent which I would NOT want to see in KI to that extent. It would be way too strong with characters with Flip Outs and Recaptures like you said.

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Throws have 2 active frames and then 29 frames of recovery (every throw I’ve checked has this, maybe there are some outliers). Most jumps are kind of around 40-ish frames. This means if the throw is input at the same time as a neutral jump, you will be able to DP it or block a jump-in. I’m sure you’ve all seen this happen, especially if you try to reset with throw and they’re holding up (input at same time), or if you try to meaty with a throw. If, however, you jump early enough and/or the opponent techs late enough, then you get a free punish for sure. The “block a jump-in and then jump again” thing is probably the most common case of it, because you’re pretty plus after a blocked jump-in, so you can do the jump well before they can throw.

I disagree with faster whiffed throws for a few reasons:

  1. I like games with hard throw defense, because it forces offense to resolve faster and also makes good defense even more valuable

  2. Longer throw whiffs mean you can punish with more things (for example, backdash into a heavy normal – most backdashes are around 18-25 so if a throw has 2+29=31 frames of whiff, then even average backdashes can punish with a fast shadow or normal on reaction)

  3. In a game with recaptures and already smothering offense, where almost every throw leads to a vortex, I want someone who takes an offensive throw attempt to have to pay for it if they’re wrong. Attempting “safe” vortex starters isn’t super great, especially someone with long throw range, reliable fast DPs and really strong close-range mixups (say, Fulgore or Rash).

  4. If neutral jumps are valued because they beat so many things, then it really puts a stronger emphasis on patient, reactionary defense, which I like. Anti-airing neutral jumps that were designed to beat a throw tech, because the defender was patient and had good game awareness, is something I really like to see. Very few KI players will correctly anti-air here, even if they didn’t take the bait… they’ll often just block because they’re too overwhelmed. I like that there is still a lot of room to grow on KI defense and making throws recover faster would take away from that. Also, there are lots of ways to stop people who do repeated jumping cross-ups at you, including walking under and punishing landing frames, auto-correct DP, jump-back normals, etc. I agree that Arbiter has a pretty hard time with this specific gameplan, though, but that’s just a character weakness, not a game weakness I think.

  5. I’m not entirely sure your proposed solution actually solves your problem (that you want there to be more grounded pressure normals); most of those normals you listed will recover in time to DP neutral jumps, so they are good choices for close range pressure already.

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I think this, to me, is the biggest issue. Whether neutral jump is too good or not is subjective but it seems to me like faster throw recovery is going to make throwing VERY strong in a game where throws are already pretty strong.

As an aside, every time I read something @Infilament writes I am stunned by his game knowledge and thoughtfulness. How are you not a paid consultant on this game by now?

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One of the main things that annoyed me about SFV was that throws have relatively low recovery, so I’d be very much against this being in KI too. Giving up the ability to block for an extended period of time to avoid a throw shouldn’t just get you punished anyway for doing so.

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I personally dislike low-risk throws as a design decision. Whether on offense or defense, a move that breaks block should be a commitment in my opinion. Particularly in a game like KI, where most throws lead to HKD and vortex scenarios.

Throw baits are also quite dangerous against patient defensive play, with neutral jump baits in particular being punishable (often for significant damage and/or setups) if the defender is content to just sit and block. I like that patient play is strongly rewarded in this manner, and I like that the pressure options and fear of throw are strong enough that patient play is difficult to commit to sometimes.

I think a lot of your issue is probably just due Arbiter (his size makes him an attractive jump-in target). But the underlying philosophy of risk and reward for KI’s grabs and grab mixups is one of the things I prefer greatly in KI compared to other games.

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I suggest an alternative: How about nerfing jumps with like, bigger landing recovery or significant landing recovery after air normal, like MKX?

Not many thoughts behind my idea, just brainstorming.

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That changes the balance of so much stuff, though. Moves that have been tailored to work a specific way (such as, say, Wulf’s dive kick for positioning) are no longer as effective. All the frame data around jumping attacks would have to be retooled. Jumping normals would be much easier to whiff punish (which might be fine in some cases, bad in others). The timing for your manuals after jumpins would totally change, ruining all your muscle memory.

If you’re gonna make a change this drastic, you would need to have a super good reason.

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It amazes me how some people suggest huge changes which would have a tremendous impact in the game without actually providing a good reason for that.

I’m happy with the current grab whiff recovery, rewards a good read and doesn’t make throws hard to punish, which is super important considering how powerful throws are for some characters.

Some characters, like Aganos or Gargos, can use throws to get resources
Others, like Glacius or Omen, can situationally convert their throws into combos
Kilgore or Sadira can use their throws to start juggling their opponent
Cinder, Fulgore or Riptor can use mixups after their throws

Are you really willing to make all this stuff easier for the one which tries to grab you?