Manuals and spin speed

i recently found out that performing manuals increases spin speed much less than normal auto doubles are. This i find kinda disturbing since it encourage you to perform combos witch are easier to break. If you whana make combos harder to break you have to sacrifice spin speed… i feel this isnt justified enough to be a thing, i mean why should fulgore be encourage to not perform manuals while the rest of the crew can do it without sacrifices?

Imo manuals should give you two ticks to the reactor spinspeed just as normal auto doubles are. You shouldnt have to sacrifice shadowmeter to make ure combos harder to break.

Interesting… Aganos, on the other hand, is more often then not, forced to do manuals to prevent from being broken as easily - which, when you think about it, seems to be the opposite of this situation.

I would like to hear the devs response on this @TheKeits.

Quick question about Fulgore, since I’m not 1 to play him often - can you use his auto-triples after manuals or only after the auto-doubles (since, you know, they’re called auto-triples, after all)?

Speaking of which, I’ve felt that the use of auto-triples has become obsolete ever since Fulgore’s major changes. What benefit is there to doing them (outside of the obvious extra damage)? With my limited knowledge of Fulgore, it seems to me that all they’re good for is for getting broken more easily.

yea i can see that beeing a factor with aganos since hes auto doubles are so slow. But then you atleas get rewarded for doing something “harder”.

no you can not perform an auto triple after a manual only after auto doubles.

as i see it now a manual gives you 1 tick to ure reactor spin speed, a double gives you 2 ticks and a triple gives you 3 ticks. Auto triples has their benefits as they increase ure spin speed abit quicker, for example if you perform 1 autodouble with a medium linker it gives you 3 ticks, (a medium linker gives you 1 tick and the doubles 2) while an auto triple there would have given you 4. Another factor here (not so sure if im right though) is that i think its more worth doing a light linker for spin speed instead of a medium linker on lockout since they bouth give you the same amount of spin speed even though the medium is two hits and the light isnt. This is something ive seen great fulgore players do (rico, nicky) often if they get a lock out, what they do is using medium auto triples followed with light linkers until the combo bar is filled.

i just feel its wrong to get punnished for performing something that is harder to do, and if im right about the light linkers beeing more valuable to perform on lockouts than mediums or heavies its the same thing there. You have to perform a lower damage combo in order to get ure spin speed going faster…

What I find funny about Aganos (and sorry for being slightly off-topic) is that his ADs are NOT slower than other characters - as a matter of fact, they use up the exact same amount of frame data as Jago’s ADs, if I recall correctly (this was stated by the devs around the time of Aganos’ release). The animations just happen to look much slower, so the visual queue you get is more obvious. It’s a way to trick both your eyes and your mind. :stuck_out_tongue:

As for Fulgore, thanks for the answers. By ticks, do you mean the speed of the spinner or the pips on the shadow meter? I ask because if it’s the latter then I’d be surprised if that was the case. I figured his spin speed was based on whether you used physically-based (faster spin-speed) or energy-based (slower spin-speed) attacks as well as not doing anything (slower spin-speed) - this forces the player to be more active and aggressive with Fulgore while also forcing them to be choosy about when they can zone with his energy-based attacks, which IMO, is a good thing (I’d hate to fight a Fulgore who could simply out-zone everyone or appear anywhere on the screen without any kind of penalty - it would be absolutely broken). I like to think of Fulgore as a giant, rechargeable battery, because, well, that’s EXACTLY what he is…

Lets be clear: You are not ‘sacrificing’ spin speed by choosing a manual over an auto double. It does not slow down. You are just giving it one additional nudge in the positive direction instead of two. If you use an auto-triple, you get a good 4 or 5 ‘nudges’ worth of increase.

The game is all about risk vs reward. Manuals are not risky. They are (outside of a few cases) impossible to break on reaction, and if your timing is early, you get an auto double, and if you are late, you get a frame trap into more pressure at worst (and a high damage counter hit into a fresh combo at best). So, to recap, that low risk gets the reward of being difficult to break, but it does not beget you more damage than an auto double, nor will it give you more spin speed in Fulgore’s case.

If you take a risk with something that can be broken on reaction, such as an auto double, your reward in damage and spin speed increase will be higher.

Addendum: The difficulty to perform something CAN effect risk when we discuss risk vs reward concepts. However, in the case of manuals, things kind of work out for the attacker either way, so it really doesnt.

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ok first thanks for you’re quick responce and im sorry if my eng is bad and if i articulate my meanings in unclear ways. But yes, i do know that a manual is increasing ure spin speed, i dont think i said it was slowing the speed down directly but by having the potential to make it go faster by performing an auto double you are instead indirectly sacrificing spin speed for performing a more difficult combo to break with manuals.

yes the combo is harder to break and that alone could justifi the damagedecrease but i feel the meter gain is abit to much, especialy in fulgores case since hes meter gain is quite hard to maintain without instinct. Manuals are no matter how good you are risky by the factor that you could accidentaly drop a combo, even though this is not a comon thing among profecionals its still a factor, i lost tons of games before i got my manuals down, frame traps or not you are still at the risk of beeing interrupted :frowning:. You are performing something that is harder to do so that youre combos will be harder to break but why should ure meter gain be affected by it? isnt the damage decrease and the tougher execution requirements enough? i dont know by how much other characters are affected by this, but in fulgores case its kind of a big deal i feel. It feels like fulgore is getting punnished for using a tool that every other character can use without sacrificing their meter gain.

yes but isnt this when the auto triple comes in play? i mean every body has manuals and auto doubles, shouldnt the risk/reward be the same in fulgores case for thouse?

interesting, the things the brain could do to you :stuck_out_tongue:

No ofc i mean ticks on the spin speed :smile:, you get yellow or red lights on ure meter frame depending on the attacks u are using (lasers or not). sry if i was unclear

Gona quote Sullen here just because i can relate to everything hes saying here as a fulgore player myself. As i said earlier it feels like fulgore is getting punnished far to much for using hes tools compared to other characters. Hes damage is far to low and hes meter gain is far to hard to maintain at a reasonable level. Im sorry for quoting such a long post but i just feel that every thing hes mentioning in this post here is true and allot of it could be fixed if hes meter gain was less punnished depending on witch tools you use.

Manuals shouldnt reduce spin speed, laser linkers shouldnt affect spin less because its a damage linker, the other linker is a cary linker and serves another purpose and is used because of it. I dont whant my spin speed to be affected just cus i choose to do a damage linker before a carry linker, i do a carry linker if i feel i whana get my opponent in the corner or i do my damage linker if i whana finnish my opponent of just abit sooner. Why should one of the other tool punnish you for using it just because it does a tiny bit more damage when a carry linker could be just as or more important in some situation than a damage linker?

Manuals are fine for spin speed, but in order to optimize Fulgore play, your combos will yield little to no speed bonus. Damage or spin is your sacrifice, and there is almost never a situation where you can afford to sacrifice damage with Fulgore.

Lets just do a little math here. A counter hit shadow dp from Fulgore is 11-12% where it’s about 19-20% from Jago. A normal counter hit Dp heavy version is 10-11% from Fulgore and roughly 15% from Jago. Why does Jago get a 5% damage difference where Fulgore gets 1%. There is never a reason to shadow dp for the extra I frames since your sacred shadow stock gained you a whopping nothing but a loss of meter and no better position if you used his regular dp. And Fulgores damage ender is supposed to be his battery ender because it’s his plasma slice. Level 1, 2, 3, and 4 ender all grant the same speed as well as his Shadow dp so why does Spinal get 4 skulls? Aganos 4 chunks? Jago, Thunder, Tj 75% of a stock vs 15-20% at lvl1? All of these on top of the block restrictions means that Fulgore isn’t just hard to get meter with, he is forcefully starved from it by the design limitations he has. What happens when Jago shoots 5 fireballs? He gets nearly or a full stock of shadow. What happens when Fulgore does that? He spends all his spin speed and possibly spends pips too. Jago walks all over Fulgore and can heal on top of build easily twice the meter from his instinct that Fulgore can. Jago doubles his meter gain from projectiles, Fulgore gets his spin speed sure, but just do a side by side comparison of the fastest meter gain for Fulgore and the fastest for Jago. Then look at who can do theirs in a match. Fulgore has to get a hard knock down to charge safely which means he needs a positive position. Would you waste his precious instinct on that pip charge? Almost never. His instinct is only used to get spin speed. It gives him no advantageous combat traits. Aganos instinct can be argued to be low tier too but his club has a lot of uses, but like Fulgore, 100% of his instinct traits are available outside of instinct. So all it is is a combo extender, or something to get you out of a pinch. If his damage was on par with Jagos in his current state, he would still have low damage potential due to severe lack of shadow but at least he could compete with the 30-40% one chance breaks a lot of the rest of the cast has. Yeah Fulgore can do 60-70% with a 3 shadow combo but that’s risky as hell. I’d rather bank on 2 1 chance breaks for 70% much safer. Or just do unbreakables which from characters like Kan-Ra and Sabrewulf can do quite a bit 20-30% in some cases. Which is your average breakable full combo from Fulgore.

The thing with Fulgore is that you don’t have to do a darn thing to earn shadow meter because you get it automatically over time (and yes, I admit, the speed at which you get it IS dependent on how the player plays, but you still get it no matter what - every other character has to be offensive to earn theirs). Not only that, but think about all of the things he can do with it - he can get 3 shadow attacks (instead of 2) or 3 shadow counters (again, instead of 2), he can shoot extra projectiles at varying times and speeds, he can cancel special moves into other special moves (memorable ones I’ve seen are teleport into DP, teleport into throw, and DP into shadow laser-eyes), his walk and dash speeds increase with the more he has, he can use a “super” attack that takes off a huge chunk of life, his instinct gives him maximum spin-speed for more shadow meter, AND he can charge for even more of it while in instinct. Sure, Fulgore doesn’t get damage - but that’s because he has absolute control over his utility. For this reason, I absolutely hate fighting against Fulgore - he gets options that nobody else can that can help give him the edge in a fight, and in my experience, he most often does get it.

i dont think the manuals are fine for spin speed honnestly. not only does it force you to play more unsafe and use autodaoubles to gain that extra speed, but it also indirectly makes hes combotrait “auto triple” less attractive. Think of it this way if the manuals and auto doubles where the same it would make the auto triple stand out more. But as it is now the auto double already give you enought spin speed whilst the manuals doesnt and then triple is just far to unsafe to even consider if you dont manage to lockout youre opponenent. But even if you do manage to lock out youre opponent you would still have to use light linkers and sacrifice even more damage if u whana effectively gain meter by using youre auto triples. Since he already does have low damage an even lower damage combo is almost never a great option. But this could be fixed by making auto doubles and manuals on par while auto triples could use a small buff so that you could atleast have the option to make a damaging combo wilst also gaining more meter, and by damaging combo im still talking about fulgore terms of a damaging combo so its not that big of a deal, he only gets a tiny bit more meter for making a riskier move without sacrificing to much.

I mean manuals is something every descent player out there are using so why shouldnt fulgore be able to use them without beeing punnished for it? When i tried this out in practice i was kinda shocked at the difference on the spin speed when performing a lvl 3 combo with manuals contra ADs, it was a huge difference. if hes meter would be easier to gain hes damage in the long run would also be better, and that fixes allot of the problems.

The thing with fulgore is that you have to work allot for youre meter. and consider this, the harder you work for youre meter the more meter your opponent gains from blocking or taking hits. if you stand and do nothing with fulgore a whole game you would probably get like maximum of 1 1/2 bar… If fulgore manage to get hes spin speed going you could theoreticaly stand in a corner and as you say do nothing for a whole game and still gain meter, but that is never an optiion. as soon as you get out of reach from youre opponenet you have to start using projectiles and as soon as you do that youre meter gain goes down the drain. its realy the other way around. other characters can stand and do nothing but blocking or throw projectiles all day to gain meter. Another thing to consider is that for every laser move fulgore does you loose spin speed, this is not only a fact when u are playing as a zoner but its also a fact when you are playing rushdown since every block string with fulgore utilises some form of laser beam, either eyebeam or plasma bolts. This means that even if you do “work hard” for youre meter, if youre opponent blocks ure blockstrings he would probably gain more meter than you from blocking cus fulgore looses spin speed from using eye lasers. So really, no matter how you see it fulgore has to work super hard for hes meter.

The only “good” way for fulgore to get pips is by using instinct or using auto triples in combos. But thies are super easy to break so they can mostly only be used on lockouts and even then you still have to consider light linkers to get the most out of them witch sacrifices allot of damage.

This is a weird thought. The suggestion that making manuals give you more spin speed somehow makes triples more relevant is pretty logic defying.

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yea i knew that wouldnt come out right. But since auto triples are far to unsafe and only considerable on lockouts cooped with light linkers they are never an option in a regular combo. In a regular combo only auto doubles and manuals are usable, but fulgore gets punnished for using manuals, and autodoubles are still easy to break if they are not lights but atleast they are still descent for the fact that they give you more spin speed. so now you have one option that is more safe (still harder to pull of and easier to drop though) but gives you less spin speed (manual) then u have a less safe move that gives you more spin speed (AD) then you have a move thats just an aouto double with another hit (AT) it doesnt realy stand out does it? Honnestly the one standing out here is the manual. It sounds wierd but this is how i whana make it sound - if you have 3 different things in a room then none of the things would realy stand out cus of the fact that they are all different. But if 2 of thouse things where more simmilar to eachother then suddenly the 3rd one would stand out more in the crowd. thats why i think that making manuals more simmilar to auto doubles would make the tripple stand out more.

as a whole i dont think fulgore should be punnished for using manuals and the tripple could use a small buff to the meter spin to be more attractive, more different, more relevant.

Fulgore DOESN’T get punished for using manuals. You need to stop thinking in terms of “less” simply because other things (ADs in this case) give you more… It’s like Keits said - you don’t lose anything; you simply don’t gain as much or you get something else entirely (like I mentioned above with his utility - unlike other characters, where Fulgore lacks in damage-potential, he gains in numerous options to help him outplay his opponents).

When you really think about it, it’s kind of like when scientists say, “cold is merely the absence of heat.” :wink:

I think the mentality here is that you’re not supposed to use auto-doubles. I’ve seen this multiple times with people who believe that since they are harder to execute that they are what you’re supposed to do once you have learned them. And if not for the reduction in damage or loss of potential meter game I would agree with this. But that’s precisely the reason they are not as strong as auto-doubles. There is a fair amount of depth in the psychological game that is the KI combo system and if you were to make manuals universally better than everything else you’d be damaging that depth significantly.

As a fulgore main you’re right sometimes it’s not in my best interest to do auto triples after a lockout, it depends on my current spin speed, amount of meter I have, status of instinct etc. I will say I usually do auto triple when I get a lockout. The thing with our meter is we get more than 2 stocks of shadow meter when it’s full, we get godlick footsies, the best backdash in the game when it’s full and also the opponent has to completely change their approach at risk of getting hype beamed.

TLDR; Manuals are not the end all be all for characters in this game.

But the fact that hes manuals gives less ticks to youre meter spin speed still makes it a factor to consider auto doubles before manuals. But heres the deal, fulgores combotrait isnt the auto doubles its the tripples, so why should fulgore have to make a tough choice between using auto doubles instead of manuals while other characters doesnt. He should instead have to make the choice between auto doubles and triples. He already have the damage reduction factor to the manual as every other character out there, but why should hes meter gain also be affected?

Keits has already been over this… But I’ll reiterate for your sake.

You still get spin speed for manuals - it’s just 1 tick instead of 2, like with the ADs. While ADs give you more ticks of spin, they’re also easier to break, so there’s a risk of not getting any spin speed at all. Auto-triples work the same way, but even more so. If anything, I would argue that using manuals is the safest option to gain spin speed. Using ADs and TDs is like going for double or nothing or triple or nothing. If you’re willing to take that risk, than fine - be my guest. And for the record, using manuals vs. ADs is the same choice for EVERY character - the same risk is there. The ONLY difference is that Fulgore also has spin-speed that gets affected by it. That’s not a loss; that’s a benefit - he’s got 1 more thing that others don’t. And that’s not including the TDs! If anything he has MORE options than other characters! Like I said, you need to stop thinking in terms of “less” - after all, “less” is more. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

no, manuals are far from everythign in this game i just find it unfair that fulgore has to deal with less meter gain and damage if he whants to manual when other characters only have to care for the damage. i mean fulgores combotrait after all is the auto triple not the auto double. But as it is now it feels like fulgore is in a world of hes own where auto doubles is hes combotrait and manuals hes doubles (hes “normal” stuff).

Less, less, less… Is that the only word you know?

Fulgore STILL gets meter no matter what! It’s just not as fast if he uses manuals over ADs or TDs. Other players don’t get meter at ALL unless they get a hit that isn’t broken with their manuals and ADs. It’s a net-win for Fulgore because he has 3 options to help gain more meter and regardless of which he chooses, he still gets it! GET IT!?

…and that’s not even counting the fact that when he does have it, he has woefully more options than other characters, as I have already explained in a previous post above, which might be why his meter-gain is slightly slower than everyone else’s meter-gain - it’s a balance-factor. Without it, he’d be OP!