Seems like you’re the one projecting.
^
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I’m not seeing how that is contrary to what I said, like, at all. It looks like I paraphrased the OP.
It’s okay to shake hands and say “you’ve got a point,” or “oh, we’re saying the same things”.
… but you don’t, and please stop being condescending. If you need me to elaborate, just ask. There’s enough context that I shouldn’t have to.
What the OP is outlining is the change in effective strategy. In previous iterations of the game that were more closely in line with the original DH vision solid play and fundamentals won over random play and gimmicks.
Soz, I wasn’t trying to be condescending.
I really do believe if this was the case, Thunder, Sadira, Spinal, and Fulgore at the very least wouldn’t exist, nor would there be cause for the breaker system other than tradition. S1 seemed to me as sort of a lame-but-crazy answer to SF4 (I didn’t spectate regularly 'til S2, and I’ve only been playing since S3 launch). This game has come a long way since, and some characters are wild, but random? I think the aforementioned S1 characters just as conducive to “random” play as the “random” S2/3 characters (which I would like some clarity on - who and what do we think is “random” and why?).
As opposed to now, where the people winning tournaments have neither solid play nor fundamentals? Thompxson has no fundamentals, nor Nicky? Bass? How about LCD, who actually does play a very solid neutral game, even if I personally think he is overly risk averse? Or how about you, who made Top 8 at EVO? Liger makes Top 8 when he deigns to compete, as do a host of other players who are doing a whole lot more than just winning with gimmicks (S2 Kan-Ra, S2 Wulf in instinct and S1 Sadira say hi, btw). I suppose you could say Sleep is gimmicky if you want (I’d disagree, but reasonable people can disagree), but can you honestly say his S3 play is any more gimmicky than his S2 play?
The “everything is yolo/shenanigans” is an incredible canard. Yes, there are absolutely players who do make Top 8’s without being as “solid” as they probably should be. But those players aren’t the one’s winning tournaments, and players just like them made Top 8’s in both S1 and S2. Even in short tournament settings, I’d put money on a KI player with solid MU knowledge and good management of the neutral against a “nut” any day of the week.
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Eh, I still think Killer Instinct is the most entertaining Fighter out there these days. The pace, dynamics, and interactions of the fights between the characters are as insane as ever.
That’s what it seems like to me, too. I don’t know SF well at all, but I recall seeing airborne characters in SFV get knocked back on their feet plenty of times in a way that looks almost exactly like KI’s flipouts. I’ve also seen a lot of long hitstuns (counter-hits, I think?) that look a lot like staggers, too. Not sure if I’ve seen stuff like recaptures in other games, but I don’t see how it’s a problematic mechanic at all at this point.
I’m wondering what makes these things in KI different and feel more unfair to players. Is it the speed of the game?
There is a lot of luck in KI.
You can get reads, and work the odds in your favor to get a good outcome most of the time, but sometimes luck can ruin a whole game.
This is more common in season 3.
When Jago is combo broken, and stuck far from Gargos, his ability to get in relies on a total guess about what gargos will do. When a match has JUST started, and you cant get a read yet, you have no way to KNOW what to do. Then Gargos gets a full screen combo, gets meter, and the whole game goes downhill from a single early combo break.
SF is a game where luck still exists, but is SO MUCH more controllable.
You control luck through fundamentals, but this game is getting to a point where even the BEST fundamentals will not guarantee a victory, even in a FT3.
Air resets are pretty standard in most fighters. It’s mostly anime fighters where an air hit gets you a juggle state by default, and even then air recovery results in a state very similar to flipouts in KI, but with more control for the defender.
Crumples are also fairly common, especially in the more recent SF games. Focus crumple was a thing in SF4, SFxT had a bunch of buttons that crumpled on counterhit, ditto for SFV…though, crumples and staggers are different things. A crumple after a certain point results in a juggle on hit and if left alone ends in a knockdown, while a stagger (e.g. slayer 5H or command grab) has the same hittable/throwable property as a crumple but recovers normally to a standing state, and always gives a grounded combo.
You go right ahead and think that, while the same best players continue to make top 8s and take tournaments.
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They are the best because they have found a nice mix of skill and luck. You think they dont take advantage of gimmicks, and/or broken things?
The same people make top 8 in KI for the same reason poker pros make consistent top 8s…
They learn the opponents enough to give them an advantage.
But that advantage doesnt always hold up. If the other player relies on a little bit of luck, and it works out, it can negate just enough skill to give them the win.
You think this isn’t how literally every top player in literally every fighting game ever became the best?
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You think campaigning to keep this strategy as minimal as possible is a bad idea?
Real talk, it is. Cool thing is it also easily the most balanced or fair fighter around, perhaps ever to exist. And it’s the ONLY fighter to be designed specifically BY LONGTIME COMPETITIVE FIGHTING GAME PLAYERS around the limits of human reactions relative to game balance. That is bloody amazing. The trouble is that an enormous amount of the population at EVERY level are fantastically misinformed into the nature of fighting games, and incredibly selfish - often what beats one player is lambasted as unfair because that player doesn’t understand enough to solve the problem. Then they take to the internet to help misinform the masses.
Honestly, it’s the fact that a ton of them are brand new to fighting games, new to personal competitive culture, are of fragile ego, and prone to mockingbird syndromes. I hate to sound like I’m just talking crap, but it is what it is.
Like this. This is utter nonsense. I don’t know who this guy’s been getting his script from, but I assure you they are a damned fool.
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lol. ok 
I think it’s a misguided view of fighting games as a whole, wherein any element perceived as “random” is a bad thing and should be stomped out in favor of being “honest” (aka boring.)
Also, like MDM said, I have absolutely no idea where you’re getting the idea that SFV is a more controllable game. I don’t practice the game, but when I’m hanging with local people that actually care and put time into it I can still beat them with my ken, without even pretending to try and footsie it. The character is random as hell, and the game is messy.
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I can’t repeat this enough:
SFV launched with artificially inflated input lag, which made run-of-the-mill 20f overheads HUMANLY UNREACTABLE.
Go ahead and keep telling yourself that game is honest and controllable. I’ll keep reminding us of those posts wherein you mention that KI is the FIRST fighting game you strove to understand, but are committed to ineffectually arguing with folks who have been studying the genre for WAY WAY longer than this game has been around. I can only speak for myself, but with 10+yrs knowledge, I’m content to watch you spin about feebly. This is fun, or something.
I hate when these conversations turn to stubborness and ■■■■-waving. Whatever, the seahorse needed to feel a breeze. It’s stuffy in these shorts.
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Let me try to explain it like this:
In both games, when you get knocked down, against an opponent you DONT have a read on, its a total guess what you should do between blocking high, low, teching, jumping, pressing a button, DP, back dashing ect…
So both games have randomness at common, key points.
the difference is, KI has more randomness stacked on top of all of that, and the risk for using “Random” strategies is MUCH lower, while the reward for BEATING random strategies is also much lower.
If you get broken VS a gargos, and you have a correct read on a portal punch, and you manage to avoid it beautifully, you have almost no reward. you are still not “in” on your opponent, and depending on the situation you may still need ANOTHER hard read to even have a chance of getting into neutral again.
its ok, i already expected this kind of “civil conversation” after reading the salt in this thread.
I expected to be responded to with total hatred, so watching you fulfill it is more satisfying than anything.
Dont worry, i can be the bigger person and filter out your ego from your posts, then try to pull whatever little information you actually include.
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In your example w Jago, why aren’t you putting fireballs on screen for Gargos to deal with?
Funny you say this since, in your earlier example as jago, you would absolutely be in on gargos with a correct read against portal punch, and would punish him for even trying it. Complaining about gargos at all for this point is weird, honestly–I’d say one of his biggest weaknesses is how much of the rest of the cast can do something “random” and put him in a ■■■■■■ situation.
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As far as I’m concerned the only “luck” or "random elements in a fighting game’s gameplay are those which are truly uncontrollable, like Omen’s fireballs.
Any other element involves interaction and choices from both players, so while it was a guess or risk for Jago to Windkick forward after the breaker, it either pays off or it doesn’t. Whether it works depends on what his opponent does, there isn’t a game-controlled element which will cause his Windkick to penetrate the opponent’s successful block, for example.
I don’t know if this is how more advanced or experienced FGC players would qualify “luck/random,” but that’s my view on it.
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