Fireballs are a good idea, as it HELPS you out. But think about the process behind putting one on screen…
After a break, a portal punch will hit you before a fireball comes out, so you must block at least one. Then after that blocked Portal punch, Gargos still has enough frames to do it again and get a hit into a full combo, so its actuall a sacrifice of life bar to even put one on screen.
without writing an essay about all of the possibilities, i will just summarize by saying: “It takes great skill and prediction to get enough fireballs out to even HELP you get closer, a REDICULOUS amount when you compare it to the reward, and the fact that almost no risk is taken by the other guy.”
No no no, please don’t misunderstand frustration for hatred. That’s the sort of hyperbole that really hurts us all, bud. I don’t hate you, I bear you no ill-will whatsoever, I just wish you understood the genre significantly better than you do, and were more open to education than you are. No hate, no hate!
I know, I can be a bit overbearingly brash at times. I oughtta work on that.
This is false. If this is your experience, your timing is bad. And if Gargos is comboing you while the fireball is on screen, he will get hit, and you will get out, and it is your turn. Playing poorly is not the games fault, man.
I define luck as a decision that you dont have enough information to make in a way that brings your odds of success over 50%.
If a game just started, and you are face to face with someone, the interaction is luck because you both have no information, and your odds of success are less than 50% for both of you.
But on Game 10 of a FT10, if you have seen your opponent do the same thing 9 times, you can predict with over 50% accuracy that they will do it again.
(if they dont, then clearly they are a better player than you THOUGHT they were, and you need to factor that in to your next decisions.)
The problem is that it’s kind of just a buzzword with a nebulous meaning. Like, when I do dash forward DP in SFV and tag someone, some people will say that’s “so random.” But I do it three times in a round, and it worked every time, so…I dunno, that’s a 100% success rate. How random is that, really? Then again, I think when I say “most characters can do something ‘random’ to gargos to get in on him and shut him down” most people are going to understand what I mean.
Yeah I feel like the terms “luck” and “randomness” are not being used properly in this conversation at all. The term “yolo” is also a personal thorn in the side for me.
The way you guys are throwing these terms around, they could literally be applied every damn button press in the whole match.
I decided to take a risk and use a special move in neutral, and you get hit by it. Why does it matter if it wasn’t a normal attack? It’s still a read that you’re not going to block it, and I got the read. That’s not the game’s fault. That’s not randomness or luck. That’s you failing to adapt to my habits. Welcome to fighting games.
The only time I feel things like this become a problem is when the move’s risk/reward isn’t balanced, but there’s very few mechanics in this game I find to be that way.
Depending on the gargos, they may get hit, or they may do a short combo into ender, and at least put themselves in a better position. This is an area where skill clearly matters, but i feel randomness still takes over in a majority of situations.
We are falling into a pattern of trying to describe only a few possible situations. We are not getting anywhere by doing this. Im just trying to say that when you factor in skill, randomness, risk, and reward, and then run this simulation 1000 times, this situation WAY too far in gargos’ favor.
If you don’t know the matchup, just be honest and say that. If you’re talking about how doing something “random” pays out it’s pretty clear that it’s rarely going to be in gargos’s favor, and other than when he gets minions out his reward for making the right reads is really low.
Possibly controversial opinion: I think gargos isn’t good.
You get good by making reads, and ONLY using luck when you are sure the odds are at least 51% in your favor.
Controlling luck IS a form of skill.
My issue is when the situation is so bad that 1 character has over 51% chance of success on EVERY viable option, while the other person can have a 100% read , and still not get good reward.
When your goal is consistency, i can see why you would think that.
My opinion is that if anyone ever got REALLY good with gargos, it would be a nightmare for every one else. 1 good decision, followed by even average decision making, would win most games.
Once again, what “luck” are you talking about? Attacking you in some way you find irritating?
You always have to consider the risk as well. Which you are not doing.
Even if 100% reads existed in this game (only time it seems like that to me is chip killing someone) you’re not supposed to get a good reward for it. That’s how risk/reward works. EDIT: As well as combo confirms.
One bad decision means gargos can lose most of a lifebar without many chances to play his game. Good decisions don’t pay out for him in a meaningful way until he has meter, and he’ll often need to spend meter on shadow counters to get out of trouble. Most of what he does in neutral is a large commitment and he’s lacking strong options to use in mid range. I think as the game progresses and players of all characters get better gargos will only get pushed further down as it becomes more and more clear just how many problems he has.
It doesn’t work like that. If the game just started, then the person who knows how to play the neutral better has a higher chance of success than the other. By your logic, fighting games in general are all luck. Before a match, you don’t know anything and the odds for success is less than 50%. It doesn’t work like that.[quote=“ZDhome, post:249, topic:16664”]
. Im just trying to say that when you factor in skill, randomness, risk, and reward, and then run this simulation 1000 times, this situation WAY too far in gargos
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Can you prove this or are you just saying it because you are having a hard time with Gargos?[quote=“ZDhome, post:251, topic:16664”]
100% read
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Well of course the reward is low. It’s 100%. Risk/reward exists. If it is low risk, there si low reward.
This is like saying you can have the read on a Dhalsim fierce limb, block it, and get nothing for your trouble. Well maybe, but blocking it isn’t the only option available to you, and even if you do block it, you then get to move forward.
If you block a Gargos portal punch, you get a free dash with most characters. If you block it close, you get a full punish. If you know the PP is coming you can get a dash or jump-in to avoid it, and if you really have a read (or the reactions for it) you can just blow throw it with a projectile invincible move. Gargos is annoying to get in on, I get it. But that’s also MU specific (like it is for a zoning archetype in any FG), and Gargos has ■■■■-awful defense once you finally catch up to him.
So this is one of those factually dubious things that people like to say, but doesn’t really bear much weight in practice. If you “yolo” tail flip, for example, and I block it, then I am going to punish you for something like 18% upfront meterless (because I punish negative bajillion moves with fierces), with additional PD such that even if I one chance it, you’ve just lost a fifth of your lifebar and I get the setup. If you manage to break my one chance, you’ve still lost almost that same fifth of your bar. If you try to mash out of my punish (because hey, you’re random like that) and I confirm the lockout, then you’ll be eating 40-50% damage depending on my resources. That’s the penalty for doing a KI shenanigan that takes 20+ frames. At a bare minimum you’re eating basic meterless crush counter damage, and at worst you’re losing half your lifebar.
KI has punishes, strong ones, for people who just “do” things or who guess badly in a given situation. It is not the game’s fault that you don’t properly punish things or confirm damage. And as it relates to Gargos, that is very much on you if you can’t deal with portal punches effectively. The move just really isn’t that good.
If your opponent usually has 5 options to escape you, but you notice that your opponent is only aware of 2 of them, you can continually execute a counter-strategy against those 2 options, knowing that they will never try the other 3 options that they arent aware of. That is using a strategy with a 40% chance of success against an opponent that you KNOW will produce a 100% chance outcome.
That strategy would be technically WRONG in efficient play against most people, but because you have a read, you can play the odds in your favor.
I said above that you must consider risk. And i just dont see enough risk on Gargos part.
Games should be programmed to give higher reward for higher risks that were taken because of a read. my opinion.
That literally has nothing to do with anything I said.
He gets knocked once, and he has high capability of losing a whole life bar again the better pressure characters in the game. And all his specials are punishable in some form or fashion without minions.
I think you’re looking at my point backwards. If there’s a 100% chance of something working (little risk), there should be little reward.
Explaining odds is very difficult, and i can see i just dont have the words to do it.
Some people believe there is no luck, only skill, some people believe there is no skill, only luck, and most people have a perceived “mix” that is just plain wrong.
I dont know how to explain in detail, so i will just leave my bare minimal opinion and be done. If the devs get it, then they get it. if not… oh well.
“When all odds, reads, risk, and reward is calculated, i believe ‘random’ or ‘yolo’ playstyles are too effective in some cases / MU’s. Not most, but some.”
I’m just having a hard time seeing why this statement should carry any weight when you’re continually showing that you don’t understand the matchup you’re complaining about.
Please elaborate, while I don’t always agree with what you say I love to hear what you think. (Along with everyone else) Plus elaboration allows us all to better understand
No, just addressing the statement that “in previous iterations of the game…solid play and fundamentals won over random play and gimmicks.” The implication of the statement is that now (as opposed to in the past) random play and gimmicks wins out over solid play and fundamentals. For a host of reasons I think that implication is incorrect, or at the very least, wildly overblown. The players who do very well in S3 tend to be those who do play “solidly”, as opposed to simply relying on shenanigans. I’ve yet to see shenanigans and gimmicks take a tournament, except perhaps at EVO where even then I’d say the final matches were more about MU knowledge than any real randomness.
Please do elaborate when you have the time - even if the thread is “dead” I’m happy to have the discussion. Safe travels.
If you’re talking about how doing something “random” pays out it’s pretty clear that it’s rarely going to be in gargos’s favor, and other than when he gets minions out his reward for making the right reads is really low.