Killer Instinct Post Season 2 Community Feedback Survey

Well, I’m not trying to counter-break them - I’m trying to combo-break them. What about that? I’m often able to combo-break certain normals after certain enders, but never sweeps - it doesn’t seem fair to me…

It’s because there used to be safe counter breakers off sweeps, so they removed the ability to break them

Personally, I think an ender should live up to it’s name and, you know, actually be the end of a combo. Period.

Wulf called; he says " :arrow_down: :arrow_up: HP; :arrow_down:HP".

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Wallsplat and launcher enders would be terrible if you did this.

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The survey wasnt open enough it was mainly about specific characters i would have rather a survey about the game in general like what we liked or didnt like in season 2

Wall-splat enders I don’t mind too much because you can still tech a throw and if they do ANYTHING else, their KV meter instantly gets full and ends their combo anyways. That’s not necessarily true of launcher enders though, which is why I don’t like them. 1 hit after a launcher ender? Sure, why not - that’s okay. But multiple hits or combo-reset or heavy knockdown to continue giving the attacking player the advantage? Come on! Give me a break! Literally!

I don’t see what argument you are trying to make here, most of the time you will be at a major advantage having completed a combo, and you can’t really get a reset from a juggle combo since if you intentionally drop the combo they will just fall to the floor. On the other hand resets are common after a wallsplat since it adds so much kv, although it doesn’t actually make the combo immediately blow out after anything else and you can get multiple enders after a quick one chance break with several characters.

In my opinion you are prescribing additional philosophies to enders which aren’t necessarily there, namely that enders should be the absolute end of the combo with no exceptions. Instead, the only absolute philosophy behind an ender is that it safely cashes out a combo with an unbreakable attack, providing there were enough components to make up a combo. Several enders do partially or fully fill the kv meter, naturally limiting the combos performed after them, so the fact that some don’t clearly shows that these moves are intended to allow you to continue a combo.

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Survey completed. Tried to be as helpful as possible while, for once, avoiding my normal long-winded nature.

To the argument of whose input should be heeded by the devs, I personally gave myself a 6 on skill level scale. I know a decent amount and understand a decent amount, but I’d never consider myself high level. I’d say I’m rather in-between.

As such, I can see a lot of value in both casual and competitive feedback. Both fanbases are needed for a game to be successful in the short and long term. So devs should consider what value to place on both parties for a variety of reasons and also how to balance feedback so you’re not steering the game too far toward one audience at the expense of the other.

Anyways, just my opinion. I want as many people playing KI as possible. If I have to deal with some of the minor drawbacks of each part of a typical fanbase for that to happen, no problem.

I think the reason I don’t like it, more than anything, is that it just seems like a step back to me. Okay, you hit me with your combo, and I accept that. But the fact that you can then continue kicking the crap out of me after the fact, and there’s nothing I can do about it? That’s NOT what separates KI from every other fighting game out there. To me, it’s like a slap in the face of KI’s own philosophy - which is that constant 2-way interaction. If something like this gets allowed, then who’s to say something similar to it won’t also be allowed? And if that happens, well then, we’re looking at a fighting game that’s no longer any different from any other fighting game because I have to sit there and just watch myself get beat to a bloody pulp and can’t do anything about it… And to that? I say no thanks. There’s a reason I stopped playing other fighting games - and that was it.

I just think that there’s another way to go about this - we just haven’t quite figured it out yet…

You can break everything after an ender is used, except command grabs (after wall splat) and sweeps, and you can manual sweeps in combos anyway so it’s not like they’re only after launcher or wall splat enders.

In season 1, there were lots of things you couldn’t break after launcher or wall splat enders, so S2 is more towards the “always 2 way interaction” philosophy, not less.

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[quote=“Infilament, post:31, topic:1947”]
In season 1, there were lots of things you couldn’t break after launcher or wall splat enders, so S2 is more towards the “always 2 way interaction” philosophy, not less.
[/quote]While true, I still believe the game’s not where it should be just yet considering that philosophy. I’ve known you can do sweep manuals mid-combo, but I believe they should be breakable, otherwise, who’s to stop you or I from getting guaranteed damage with opener-sweep manual combos (similar to the once unbreakable opener-ender combos)?

There’s nothing stopping you from doing that right now, except it’s pretty poor damage overall and it doesn’t cash anything out. However, if you want to accept the reward for opening your opponent up as a short, unbreakable combo for about 8% with a knockdown + a setup after, then that’s perfectly fine! You will have to hit your opponent considerably more often than he hits you to win, but that’s your call to make. For some characters (Omen in the corner after a throw, for example), it actually can make sense sometimes.

Also, opener-ender has always been breakable since the game launched, they just changed how the cash out works on it so you can’t die from the ender cash out before you have a chance to break now. This was a virtual non-factor in season 1 and only came to light in season 2 when Omen/Fulgore started doing lots of white life to you.

We’ll have to see if they change how sweeps operate in season 3. They probably “should be” breakable, but if the alternative is to have safe counter breakers off opener → sweep, this is a much better solution for now.

Also, I’d like to say that KI is not all breakable damage… in fact, a large part of KI is trying to get as much damage as possible before your opponent can break, and I’m not just talking about unbreakable combos that use enders. Raw DP from Jago does 12-13% and is unbreakable damage. Jago’s cr.HP into shadow laser sword opener does an astonishing 19% unbreakable damage. There will always be damage in this game you cannot break, so opener → sweep is not particularly egregious or out of line.

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@infilament

I still don’t follow the safe counter-breaker aspect - wouldn’t doing that against a sweep just leave you vulherable? I feel like you’re saying counter-breakers, but meaning combo-breakers…

In early season 2, if you did a sweep and then counter-broke it, you would go into the counter break pose as the character was getting knocked down. Because sweeps were hard knockdowns, the defender wouldn’t be able to get up in time to punish. Of course, if you attempted to break, you would get smoked. It was a safe counter breaker.

What it meant was that players would do a lot of opener-sweep combos and counter break them, meaning you were basically taught to never attempt a break. Eventually, at a random point, they would NOT do sweep and instead do a one-chance combo and cash out all the white life (so not only would you have to guess on the one-chance strength, you would have to guess WHEN to try it, and if you were wrong you eat 60% damage).

This strategy was too good, and the devs stated that fixing the safe counter breaker off a sweep was actually a hard problem because of how the game was coded and they couldn’t come up with a decent solution while they were hard at work on the S2 characters, so they just removed the ability to counter break (and, therefore, also break) sweeps.

Thanks, Infil - I get it, I think. So, the basic idea was that they would train you to not combo-break sweeps by doing the safe counter-breaker all the time, and then they would suddenly switch it up for a much bigger combo?

Also, based upon your own description, it sounds like I was right about the devs still needing to figure it out. :wink:

How much do you think it would affect the game if they just made all (or most) sweeps soft knockdowns instead (while keeping the current setup of sweeps not being breakable)?

Yes.

I’m sure “sweeps are now unbreakable” isn’t the best possible solution, but it seemed to be the only solution they could afford to implement while S2 was still in development. And it’s not the worst “plan B” they could have come up with IMO, even though it is yet another weird exception to explain to newcomers trying to understand an already-confusing combo breaking system.

Well, it would hurt Aganos a lot, for instance. It would also hurt Maya quite a bit, who uses sweep to allow for good oki. I think sweeps should probably be hard knockdown so oki can exist.

…and I’m inclined to agree; I was just throwing the idea out there. If anything, I think some characters (particularly Aganos) should have the hard knockdowns they cause last just a slightly bit longer (I’m thinking a few more frames, nothing more).