Do you mean on reaction? Because, no you cannot. I’ve simply written it this way because it stays in line with my other data and haven’t had any input on it. I get what you’re saying, but this way let’s it stay consistent with my data. The 1 here simply equals 0 in game. Same with 4 frame jabs in game equaling 5 frames in my sheet.
Alright gotcha.
Thanks bro I needed this just now and I googled this thread up. Anyways I really appreciate your efforts.
Thanks! I hope you get what you need from it. 
Thunder’s grab is 5+0 because it can punish -5 moves. The 0 means you can take no action after the freeze.
If you were to say 5+1 that means it is a 6 frame move, or 4+1 means you can take action after the freeze.
If it helps, the first active frame in this case is actually absorbed in the 5th frame before the freeze, because that is technically the frame that hits you. The freeze is largely cosmetic because the hitbox will get applied to the state your character was in on the frame previous.
Here, this might help. I recorded Thunder doing shadow grab + Jago doing wind kick next to him (so you can see exactly when the opposing character stops moving because the super freeze is active).
Notice how Jago is frozen in place after the 5th frame (ie, the frame that will hit him). This might help you understand why I say “you are hit the frame before the freeze happens”, and it might help you with that whole “counts the first active frame” thing. Notice that the Thunder grab hitbox is actually applied during the freeze, so Jago was hit on the frame before the freeze started.
Basically, the freeze is just a very long extension of the frame right before it, so if the move hits during the freeze, then the frame right before it is the “first active frame”.
It should also now be very clear why the in-game KI data saying Thunder’s grab is 5+0 is so wrong. It means they are completely inconsistent with their own definition of “don’t count 1st startup frame”. They can’t easily list shadow moves at all using their method, because “0 after the freeze” means nothing to them. If the KI data says 0 after the freeze, does that mean I can jump on reaction or not? Where does this mysterious 1 frame get hidden, if not in the second number? Should they list Thunder’s grab as 4+0 then (so that you add 1 to the first number instead)? What about for moves like Raam’s shadow grab, that is 1+0 in my definition… how is the game going to handle that? Are they going to call Raam’s grab 0+0 (which is technically what they need to do to be consistent)?
The SF way of doing frame data is better for these reasons, and when they say Thunder’s grab is 5+0 in the game, they are either doing it the SF way just for shadow moves and not for other moves (which is bad), or it is an error.
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I understand it. Makes sense. Get a feel for how both ways work. When appling frame data. The old way and the new way.
Ok. So from what I understand, just change the 1 to a 0 in cases where the hitbox appears without the opponent moving, eg. Thunder’s Shadow Call of the Earth?
Thanks for the illustration.
Yeah, if you can’t jump after the freeze then it’s n+0.
The easiest way to test these is to put the opponent on record and get them to do a move that has very clear animation differences for the first 10 frames (hopefully one that doesn’t hit you). Then, time your shadow move to coincide with that, then just count the frames before the freeze where you see the opponent moving, and the frames after as soon as they start moving again.
If you just do frame step with the shadow move, sometimes it’s hard to figure out when the freeze starts and when it ends. Getting another character to act “outside” the shadow move will give you much clearer indication as to when the freeze starts/stops, then you can just count the frames you see them moving.
I’ve been recording using the dummy as the one doing Shadow Moves, while I input the slow normals. I assume that this comes to the same conclusion.
Yeah same thing.
That’s how I test shadow moves start post freeze. Just keep hitting buttons till my button loses or trades.
Update! Sorry for the long wait. Life happened. Finally, the Season 1 characters are complete 100%. I updated the Shadow Moves and even changed some things to be accurate as of 3.4 (ex. Sadira’s standing LK having 4 active frames now).
Again, sorry for the long wait.
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One question what’s the difference between the ingame frame data and the one here? Is the ingame one more inaccurate or doesn’t use the FGC frame data standards?
In-game is less accurate (not updated after numerous patches) and also doesn’t follow the street fighter way of displaying frame data ( a standard for many).
(If I’m wrong, then please correct me)
No, that’s correct. When patches happen, the in-game frame data doesn’t get updated (sadly), so there are a lot of wrong numbers now. Most of the normals are correct, but it’s usually the special or shadow moves that have wonky data.
@Ziarist I was talking to some friends and we think we want to help you finish this spreadsheet once and for all. We might not start until the next KI patch though (sounds like it’ll be some time next month). Would you be willing to give me and a few other people of my choosing edit access to your spreadsheet and your blessing to make changes? For example I would add a tab about “how to use” and that sort of thing, not to mention filling out the rest of the data + making changes to your existing data to reflect recent patches. You are of course welcome to help us fill out the rest if you are still interested in that.
I want to use this data in my guide, perhaps to make some cool visualizations but if nothing else, just a link to the spreadsheet on each character page.
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I would love to start this up again. I’ve been really tired because of work. If you want to pm me so we can talk specifics I’ll be glad to get you in.
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I still to this day use this spreadsheet im the kind of guy who based his gameplay on data and heavy tech i have one question tho? Are you guys still working on it?
When I can, and when I feel like it. Sometimes you’re just not in the mood to sift through recorded videos frame by frame, and making sure you’ve set up the move correctly to capture what you need. It’s very tedious and can be draining.
I’m sorry for not working on it as of late. I’ve been focusing on my performance in my local RanBats. I will be working on it more soon. I cannot speak for @Infilament @DEClimax and @Dayv0.
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I haven’t really been motivated to do much in KI lately. Mostly been playing KOF14.