Kan-Ra S3 general discussion

Also I dont think it should be un jumpable I think i should be able to get a read hold up when i input if i anticipate a jump so that jumping wasnt always the answer since its re actable. But you had a good point cover it with a shadow scarab but not sure in that situation its worth using both meters for 12% damage :frowning:

agreed good sir

Are you referring to shadow command grab? I think that move should just never be used outside of combos at all, right?

Yea but it has 1 current use outside of combos now since its projectile immune but yea the damage makes it not worth it otherwise.

Yeah, using it as a punish is cool but I would imagine if you are trying to use it as a mixup, there are better Kan mixups using regular grab that also don’t cost meter. Your suggestion to be able to point shadow grab upwards is fine but in the end I don’t think it helps him because why not just do the regular upwards one? It doesn’t cost a meter and does more damage (I think?) and doesn’t switch sides so it just seems better all around.

I know most other command grab chars in the game can use the shadow version of their grabs for the extra strong mixups but I think it’s better to pretend Kan doesn’t have one, outside of combos or projectile punishes. I don’t think it makes him that much worse of a character.

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@Infilament not going to lie your argument makes a lot of sense you sold me

Also don’t forget that if Kan could steer the shadow grab upwards after the freeze, your opponent would just start reacting to all shadow grab attempts with backdash, which will punish both. :slight_smile:

Yea true but only the good players lol

True, but you’re good enough to dunk all the bad players anyway. :slight_smile:

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It’s not a standard reversal, but if Hisako wants to wake up with counter, she’s committed to it. Gargos reversal is so slow that in a knockdown situation, many characters can force him to whiff entirely, precluding an instinct pop. Sadira has nothing really invincible to get up with, and she can’t usefully instinct cancel shadow web cling.

I think you really have to compare toolsets on this one - simply trying an apples-to-apples doesn’t really clarify anything. Sadira’s air action rules are pretty strict, for instance. She has many situations where she cannot usefully cancel into any other air attack (any time she drops a widow’s bite on you first, for instance, unless you’re Aganos or Gargos and just kinda have to hold whatever comes next). There are DP gaps in a lot of her subsequent air-action setups on block, and many of her trickiest options are strictly unsafe. Rash is also a lot more punishable on many of his air-approach stuff than people realize, and Cinder gets nothing for free without either a pyrebomb or very precise spacing.

Kan-Ra has much better air normals than all of these characters except for Rash, so him being able to scarab (off a hard to AA superjump I might add) into plus-frame air normal means something entirely different than what it means for Sadira or even Cinder. If Kan wants plus frame air pressure he’s got it, with some of the best jump-in normals in the game. If he wants to fill the screen with junk , then he’s got that too. I don’t think he needs both at the same time (and most of the other characters cited don’t get that either).

Put me down with Infil on the concept of an unreactable Kan-Ra command grab. Kan has loads of hard punishes to people trying to jump his command grabs, and he gets some pretty disgusting stuff out of landing one of them. The range that you have to be aware of Kan’s grab (and simultaneously aware of all the other crap he can hit you with) is way too large for him to be able to toss it out with no chance of you seeing it. It’d be a 3/4 screen 50/50, one you’d be looking at nearly all the time since he has scarabs for space control. And being able to safely whiff command grabs is just bad design IMO - there needs to be a penalty for someone trying to snatch you up from halfscreen. Even reactable command grabs (shoot toss, possession) should have consequences on whiff.

And yeah, Kan’s shadow command grab is similar to shadow possession I think, where it should probably only be used in neutral for situation-specific punishes.

Play the match-up as Sadira sometime :sweat_smile:

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Kan-Ra doesn’t really need anything, he is a top 10 character. He has the tools to win vs every character (not saying he wins every MU).

I honestly think it’s us Kan-Ra players that need to play smarter.

Get rushed down by yolo Rash?
Put a shadow trap on the field, stand on top of it and let him come.

Need to make a comeback? Put a shadow swarm on the field and be untouchable for the next 10 seconds.

Annoyed by teleports? Put a heavy swarm on the field and move in front of it.

Sadira jumping in on you all day? Put a trap on the field and run away. Press KKK when she jumps in. Repeat.

Afraid of a random wind kick or cold shoulder? A correctly placed swarm will beat it clean.

You have the life lead and meter? Sacrifice some ender damage for a shadow trap. You now have the life lead, a slowed opponent with a lot of white life and a shadow trap to assist you. Now you can safely put some swarms on the field and watch how your opponent desperately tries to penetrate your defense.

When I lose most of the time I can name a situation where I made a bad decision or messed up a certain setup, which snowballed into a loss. I am still working on getting rid off my bad habits and watching your own replays helps a ton with it.

It’s 100% me (and you) and not the character who s*ck

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@STORM179 I agree with the things you said. how about a normal command grab feint then throw his hands back then nothing since its so easily re acted to command grab? Thoughts? Again im truly fine where he is but something about everything being re actable doesnt sit well with me and seriously his range is really close to everyone else with a command grab Raam is the exception its 2 tiles in the lab the others are 1.5 to 1.75 tiles range. But maybe that is huge and I just cant feel it

I agree Hagen but these things arent as easy to do as you say especially offline vs the best players in the world Kan S3 I love i just feel he is missing like 1 thing to make him a real competitor at the highest level is all. But im going to the lab in a bit

I don’t have an issue with a “fake” normal command grab, but I really think you might be underestimating how easy it is to actually see and avoid Kan’s command grab. It has less startup (and visual cue) than shatter for instance, while Kan has similar tools to Glacius in terms of keeping players honest about trying to jump out of stuff. There are definitely a few players out there who can reliably react to Kan’s windup, but for those few people you’ve also got an anti-air command grab (that is pretty much indistinguishable from his ground one on startup). Kan already has tools to punish someone who tries to jump his command grab on reaction - another command grab that gives him the same damage and setups as his ground one.

Kan-Ra gets his 2 tile command grab without any use of meter, while the 1.5-1.75 tile command grabs for the rest of the cast (barring Glacius and Arbiter) all cost a bar. If Raam or Hisako want to meterlessly threaten with grabs from that distance, you have forever and a day to challenge appropriately. Thunder simply can’t threaten command grab at that range without meter. I think Kan’s midscreen threat is qualitatively different than most of the grapplers in the cast. Gargos and Mira can tick into far meterless grabs, but the startup (and tell) of those is probably equivalent-ish to Kan, and they still don’t go as far.

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I think Kan would be really insane if he could fake his command grab such that he could anti-air people who tried to jump. That’s just way too much for a character who can fill the screen with as much stuff as he does. I think what Storm said is right, if you want to make a read on someone reacting to your command grab, you can use the anti-air one. It’s risky but I think you can’t take the risk out of Kan’s hands for command grab attempts.

fair enough

All I think he needs is

  1. instinct cancel after whiff explosion, fix to his exchange ender bugs,

  2. fix to his shadow scarab that is buggy since s3 launch.that move needs adjustment, is also causes very littlle hitstun/blockstun compared to the regular scarab. Sometimes it just disappears and thats 1 meter gone like that.

  3. the classic forward jump hp crossup into shadow scarabs needs to form a projectile instead of a linker version, to compensate for the low hitstun and damage it has. Also the linker version causes the, light, meduim and heavy autodoubles followup to whiff alot. Its worse on big characters.

Like u do it against a char, the AD whiffs, u lost ur sand, a bar of meter and u just placed urself in the enemies hands

Ability to perform air nomals after scrab only in instinct could be a plus.

I assume you’re talking about blocked explosion, because there are no moves in the game that can be instinct canceled on whiff.

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Lol yeah I meant blocked explosion.

Yes, shadow swarm bugging out is annoying. A workaround for this is to not use that move like that at all.
Find a way to safely put it on the field and stay close to it. Now it works like a free Combo breaker that leads into a full combo. You are basically untouchable for the next 10 seconds. Enough time to place traps and swarms and pressure your opponent for free. Even yolo clutches are safe most of the time.

Also, while it would be cool to instinct cancel sandsplosion, the benefit is not thaaaat big after all. Let me explain.

On hit you might be able to combo the explosion into something or at least set something up.
On block you would be at a frame advantage. That’s it.
The instinct cancel freeze let’s you confirm A or B

Without the ability to instinct cancel you just activate instinct first. Now you can freeze confirm what your opponent does. Meaty? Explode! Grab? Shadow whirl or j.HK into full combo. Nothing? Super jump the hell outta here, or pressure with St.LK or both.

While it’s always good to have both options I would probably go for instinct first anyways because of the possibility to land a big combo.

@HWFREEKYJASON

I believe you can make Ra work at the highest level. Sleep already proved it.
I know, that was a different Ra. But he had the same weaknesses. His offense got nerfed, but with all of his latest buffs, all the great tools they gave him (shadow spike, shadow swarm time buff) and all the knowledge we have right now, I honestly believe he is as strong as in season 2.

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