Is Thunder the wrong archtype?


#22

I think this is interesting. I really don’t think there is a 100% fundamental method one should use to play this game. I see more players just doing randomness than anything.I literally just had someone tell me, “I hate Jago players, but I respect your Jago”. All because I was being patient and playing with my brain. I think thats saying a lot about the state of play go this game. A lot of people are saying stuff like this.


#23

I think thunder is fine now. The nerfs he recieved toned down his cookyness a bit. Sure he can still be played crazy rather successfully but it feels much more manageable now.


#24

Play me in a set to 10, I bet you’ll change your mind with some new tech I found. lol


#25

unless you’re using cinder or someone else whose just as crazy


#26

I always thought he was a Grappler because he had the most grappling options if any character at the time. He has a throw with hardknockdown and forward movement, a backthrow that acts as both an opener and linker, a command grab with huge range that switches sides and leads to a HKD, AND an instant Shadow Command Grab that acts as a mega damage cash out/side switch that also leads to juggles for more mixups/damage.

Even if he doesn’t adhere to a lot of the weaknesses of a traditional Grappler (Hell he’s almost a Shoto with the fireball replaced with a grab) but by definition a Grappler’s job is to get in and grab people and for a long time he was the only one who could properly fit the bill. And even with other Grapplers added to the game later, I don’t think the others have the same amount of flexibility with what their grabs can pull off.

So I guess you could say Thunder is the most flexible Grappler in the world.


#27

Oh great now I’m imagining thunder doing very flexible yoga lol. This is going to haunt me for the rest of the day isn’t it…


#28

So honest.


#30

What is stupid play? If it works, it works right? I wouldn’t call that stupid. What are fundamentals? You want to be good at the game overall? What does that mean? If you are winning a lot with Thunder, I would argue that you are good at the game. There shouldn’t be a 100% fundamental method people should use. I don’t see how everyone playing the same way is a good thing. What’s exactly wrong with randomness? I keep hearing the terms stupid play and fundamentals being used against KI but I don’t understand what it means?


#31

Here’s my definition on stupid play

Stupid play: Abusing options that are easy to perform and have huge payoff

Of course it works but the fact that it can so easily be done makes it stupid.

Although I don’t believe KI has that big of an issue with dumb play cause there are really no OP moves with high payoff yet no risk whatsoever. (Well you might count glacius setplay with hail but that takes skill and preparation). Most of the time repeating the same game plan all day will get you punished by a competent player. Every nutty factor in this game can be countered if played against in the right way.

Also since you seem to dislike the nuttiness of Thunder, I wonder why you have nothing to say against Eagle. I would consider him one of the most gimmicky character in the game. Although you’ve seen me play a more hit and run Eagle (really because Thunder would murder me up close) I play a more aggressive upclose eagle that has so many options to be able to open up and confuse the enemy. He’s more crazy then Thunder in a way. Hell he has skydive as well. I would only guess you accept this because of their big difference in damage. Idk how you play Eagle so that’s why I ask…


#32

Honestly eagle is not that good. I would say sucks. He can win against few charactera but I can just pick eyedol or rash and spam jump mk overhead over and over cuz I know u cant do anything about it. Eagle offense depends whether u have already seen that setup before or not( same problem kan ra has). That up arrow into low arrow setup wont work on good players. Thunder is light years better and naughtier than eagle. Eagle and kan ra are bros in that bottom tier list


#33

IMG_1930

Low tier?! All those crazy mixups from screech pressure + rain pressure + ambiguous wingspan mixup + bird double jump, to low tier?! I’ve never thought of him as high tier but never even crossed my mind that he was low tier.

That just seems like a predictable Eagle/Kan-Ra. the whole point of a mixup/setup is so that you have more then one option to cross up the opponent. Sure you’ve maybe seen screech pressure to wingspan crossup but a good eagle will use all of his advantages to never let you breath. Basically, if Eagle is not using his double jump, he’s not at his true potential.

A few characters? I’ve never seen a bad matchup for him, worst being neutral. If someone is spamming jump MK overhead, eagle can easily AA, air to air or just plain bird crash. RASH is just annoying for anyone enough said, eyedol is defenseless when in mage stance against him and you just have to play smart when against warrior stance. I want you to name me one character he has a real disadvantage against (on second thought Kim Wu is a great counter as she can make screech pressure worthless) but besides from her who else has a major advantage.

Sorry for the small rant. I’ve just never heard that statement before and was taken a lil aback


#34

Take Maya’s daggers for example, Why am I getting punished for being astute and blocking? Why does this induce an homing unblockable that begets a combo which I now have to guess break in, because she’s a juggling maniac? It’s rinse and repeat even. She already has the ability to easily hit confirm from full screen. This induces stupid play. Character like this do not encourage a fundamental thought process. Fundamental as in "Okay, let me think about what the other player is doing, if she does this move? what is the proper punishable reaction for it? what are the habits?

We have these crazy characters that no longer induce ‘thinking’. Cinder players randomly fly around the map hoping they are able to ld something. 0 though process there; THEY TRY TO DP THROUGH TRUE BLOCK STRINGS. LIKE BRO WHY YOU PRESSING BUTTONS!!! IM PLLLLUUUUUSSSSSSS… LOL. The thing that gets me is that this kind of nonsense actually works from time to time. It’s not cool. I’ve watched some of the best players online get taken out consistently against nonsense. There are some characters you just can’t make reads or reactions on. you just have to stick out a button and HOPE to get lucky… AHEM Shago HEMEHEM

Eagle offense is silly, don’t get me wrong. He’s DUMB TOO, but he’s lacking in the defense department which balances him out rather well. He has 0 wake options and he’s capable of being smothered completely. I like that because he’s fun to use at high level. I can still have fun and be nutty, but also have to think about what to do in crunch situations. Thats the kind of balance I’d like to see for other characters. Thunder just happened to end up with all of his nonsense due to the fact that all of these other character attributes came to fruition.


#35

If something’s a true blockstring then the DP won’t come out so no harm done? Who cares if you’re plus, it’s a DP and invulnerable anyway?


#36

[post complaining about Thunder, a S1 character]

:face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#37

idk what to tell you man, baiting reversals is a big part of quite literally every fighting game ever made. DPing when your opponent is plus is a good idea, and a good use of a reversal. It is up to the offensive player to bait and punish DPs - especially with Cinder, whose non-fired up DP does pitiful damage and the risk/reward is way way not in his favor.

I think this is the main source of your frustration. If your only strategy is to play blind and hope for the best, then you won’t have success. And if you think the best players’ gameplan, in any game, is simply to stick out buttons and hope to get lucky, then you’re misunderstanding how fighting games work.


#38

This is stated as a revelation, but you’ve literally been saying this for months now :thinking:

Plus frames are a perfect place to DP. It’s a good option to force people away from locking you down into disgusting setups and makes them give you back your turn. This is a thing in every fighting game that has plus frames and invincible reversals.

I will submit once again that if this is your mentality in any match-up, then you are doing it wrong. Are there situations where you will be forced to guess at an unreactable mixup? Absolutely. But even in those situations, a heck of a lot more than “gee, I sure hope this button/block goes my way” should be going through your mind.


#39


#40

Thunder is duuuuuummmmmbbbb, for real!! SPECIALLY if you face a Thunder WITH lag!! Can’t get the right break and I’m dead and if not just more nonsense to deal. Thunder is dumb.
But I think I’m more salty because the lag was messing everything…:rage:


#41

Kind of like our last match together. :stuck_out_tongue: I’d get a hit confirm, see the pup flinch and go in for a combo… nope… Eclipse… :smiley:

@CHANCHULA Kan Ra started the nuttiness? Did you ever play S1? I’m sure most could agree that Sadira was nutty from the get go… at least until the beginning of S3. :slight_smile:


#42

Lol. There’s no question Thunder isn’t a fun character to fight in lag :sweat_smile:

As for the whole “KI didn’t have nuttiness until Kan-Ra” bit, I just kind of chuckle to myself. Wulf could chain frametrap crouch light punches virtually forever until he finally caught you standing up to try and block the unreactable overhead that he could toss in at any time. And who can forget the fun of teleport backdash? Or how about Jago and his ability to create nigh-unbreakable combos any time he touched you? Ooh, and also fullscreen shadow windkick, which could punish blocked ice lance from Glacius along with basically any move or normal whiff from anywhere on the screen. Even without her infinite Sadira had 60% guaranteed combos in instinct, where there was literally nothing you could do but eat the damage and hope you could block the next mixup. Which you probably couldn’t. She also had no recovery on landing frames from web cling, and could consequently run away from some of the cast for the entire match after she got a life lead. Spinal had legit unblockables, and Thunder had a vortex not entirely dissimilar from what he’s got now actually, along with many of the same reset options.

KI was always nutty. The extent to which it’s remembered as “honest” by many people was really just us being bad at the game at the time.