Is Combo Assist Truly Helpful - Noob Perspective

It’s the same thing. CAM does impact each characters tools, as every single character has variation with their autos and how they opperate. There is a difference lets say in Sabrewulf’s Rapid Bites versus TJ Combo’s autos. Not promoting proper button inputs to achieve combos, is exactly like not having to aim to get head shots.

No it’s not. The equivalent of not having to aim to get headshots would be if you had a button that gave you an unblockable opener. CAM’s equivalent in an FPS would be more like if the gun automatically shot when you aimed down sights which would not break any balance.

I’m sorry, but comparing CAM to an automatic headshot in an FPS is to show a gross misunderstanding of proportionality. If you think CAM is like an automatic headshot in a short time-to-kill game like destiny, then there’s basically no point in arguing about this.

The ability to get pure AD combos, in KI of all games (where all combos can be broken), is the same as automatic headshots? That is a terrible argument on its face.

I’m honestly tired of arguing about this. If that’s how much you think CAM helps people, then there’s basically nothing to say. I’ll try to remember the next time I play and don’t drop my AD combos that I’m hitting an automatic win button. Gotcha. :unamused:

Yes I used a gross exaggeration, but at the end of the day, my point is still valid.

KI doesn’t need to be dumbed down for anybody. Of all the fighting games I’ve EVER played (been playing them since SF2) it is the most open and friendly game for newcomers. KI has one of the greatest noob tools in all the world, aka Dojo Mode. So do we really need a “Combo Assist”?

I don’t mind assisted mechanics IF its for offline play or local versus, but there is just something completely off about having assisted combos when you start playing on the competative scene.

Also Storm, you and I know that you purposely drop autos to cause me to strike you, so you can use Vengeance on my ars. :stuck_out_tongue: We’re still even. :smiley:

While this might be true, it’s still freaking hard for those who never spent much time with other FGs before. I remember when I picked up KI two years ago. It was terrible. I would never have stuck around if it wasn’t for the cool music and style of the game and the fact that there wasn’t really much else to play on the Xbox One. Even the dojo mode was very overwhelming without prior knowledge and I think I didn’t even pass more than the first ten lessons or so.
You can argue about CAM not helping beginners to get better but it certainly helps them having more fun early on and I would have loved to have it back then. In fact I turned ender assist on this weekend and loved it because it takes away one of the situations where I have to deal with those ■■■■ DP motions.
A few days ago I watched a beginner’s stream and asked them how they liked the game. He and another beginner in the chat said it is awesome and very satisfying to see that they can make cool stuff happen so easily.

I have, quite literally, never dropped a Killer Instinct combo because of a missed quarter circle. I have dropped combos because of mistimed attacks (like manuals, or juggles, or I panic and don’t combo after a light auto-double), but these are things that would still happen if CAM was on. The part that CAM helps with, I have never, ever missed. Not a single time.

And I bet you I can find lots of other people like me.

The comparisons to automatic headshots or aimbots in FPS are beyond silly. These are things that would help ANY player, not just beginners; CAM does not help high intermediate to expert players at all (minus the OS stuff, which the devs have committed to fixing). If you really want to compare CAM to an in-game hack that FPS devs have to constantly fight against, because it is clearly circumventing human capability, then your perception of CAM is really inaccurate.

It is a lot closer to, say… Google translate vs learning the language yourself. You can’t tell me “Spanish is way easier to learn than other languages, just sit your butt down and spend the time to learn it like the rest of us did”. I don’t care, I want to try and communicate in a very basic way with other Spanish speakers right now. Eventually, if the language seems really cool, maybe I’ll sit down with it and really learn it. I also have no advantage over a native Spanish speaker because Google translate exists (in fact, native Spanish speakers don’t even need to use it, believe it or not).

But if your method for growing the Spanish culture is to force people to sit down and learn your language from scratch before they can even find out what’s cool about it, you aren’t likely to succeed. A small group of people will do it, but what’s wrong with using Google translate? What about if I talk to someone in Spain through Facebook for 5 years and use Google translate for everything, and then say “heh, did you know I never actually learned Spanish and instead just used Google this whole time?” He would probably say “yeah, I figured… not everything you said was indicative of a native speaker, but I’m really glad we could talk anyway.”

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But with cam you would not drop it if you start doubletapping all doubles - its all about saying and explaining things like i want them to be without considering other options.

And tbh everyone drops combos - everyone as long as motions or timing (or both) are involved. Eliminating one factor in s-c-rewing up will always be controversial.

This topic just shows what i said in the other thread - for some it just seems unfair. You can argue as much as you want at its core the opponents dont fight with the same basis.

And this fact will always divide or let people feel cheated.

And the OP just pointed out a legit concern for beginners who actually try learning the game with motions in mind.

In pressure situations combo drops or missed punish opportunities happen even in a low execution game like ki.

Mashing a button in grounded pressure situations or as a grounded punish with cam let you always start a combo (always) that other new players miss with mashing only jabs as a panic reaction.

Every player in KI has seen a player after pressuring him standing with mashed jabs. At a beginners level cam will make a big difference there - believe it or not. And i actually feel the OP that its frustrating to try learn the game how it should be learned and getting punished for it in form of losing to a player that uses cam (that otherwise would had the same issues as he has - combo dropps n stuff).

And its really sad to read the same downplay of concerns over and over again.

The system in its current form is far far from perfect - at low and advanced level.

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And I’m sure you’ve never screwed up the input to an ultra either in the heat of combat? Or gotten the wrong ender? :unamused: Things that I “quite literally” see happening in every tournament ever streamed by players a lot better than you and I are. Quarter circle screwups DO happen. No amount of pretending by you or anyone else will erase them from existence.

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I believe it.

It’s just opener assist that’s the problem. A lot of the complaints people levy are against linker assist, which I don’t see changing.

I have never intended to get ultra (or a certain ender) and NOT gotten it because I input a bad quarter circle/DP motion. I have dropped ultra combos for other reasons, but never this one. I really don’t think it’s that big of a stretch. And if nobody else in the future of KI ever dropped an ultra combo or ender again because of a bad motion, I don’t think the game would suffer at all.

Anyway, I only posted in this thread because I couldn’t sleep, and I’ll back out now since I have nothing new to say on this topic. I enjoyed reading the OP’s perspective on the mode.

But atm it is part of the combo assist mode. And the linker thing is a legit concern from a beginner trying to learn the game without cam.

I dont want to argue about this stuff - just saying that there are black sides to the white stories about how good cam works for new players. It makes it harder to learn the game for those that want to play the game without the assist and the most important part - less fun.

And im betting the op is not the only new player that feels cheated by playing against other new players with cam.

With that said im out too.

I don’t like sounding like a noob here, but what did you mean by OS stuff - I know you could’ve meant Operating System of course, but I somehow doubt that’s what you meant :slightly_smiling:

He means Option Select.

You’re right Lycan. As I’ve said before if CAM was an offline/ Exhibition only mode, then I don’t think anybody would have a complaint, but the fact that it can be taken into Ranked (a mode where you’re not supposed to have any more training wheels) is a problem.

I don’t mind losing to good players at all, I know how to take a loss and learn from my mistakes. Only thing I was complaining about is CA giving bad players a big ego.

I do think though that a lot of people ignore the fact that you may run into situations where both players are of equal skill. Same skill in the neutral, on punishing, blocking, footsies etc. Two equal mid or low level players who don’t utilize manuals. Yet, one player is using CA while the other isn’t… Who automatically has the upper-hand now? Assuming these guys aren’t pros the possibility to drop combos is very real for one, not so for the other. That said, dropped combos even happen at high level tournaments.

Is it fair in the situation above for one player to have an artificial advantage? If you’re new and don’t want to use CA aren’t you at a disadvantage as well. Yes, the obvious solution is to get better, but again we’re talking new players here, not pros. It’ll take time for them to become good at the game, meanwhile they’re playing at a disadvantage online because they prefer to learn the more traditional way.

At any rate, I just wanted to clarify that. The whole issue with CA isn’t really a huge deal to me anymore. Being in Killer now I’m not seeing the things that initially turned me off of the idea of CA, like mindless button spamming. It made low level matches an absolute mess imo, and I honestly wonder if that would effect peoples initial impression. But, of course once you’re out of that tier, the game changes entirely. As I mentioned earlier, I’m already having a difficult time getting my friends into the game because they think it’s a button masher, CA may not help in shaking that inaccurate perception. On the other hand, that’s kind of his own ignorance in not understanding or opening his mind to the game. Then how do you convey to fans of other fighters that KI offers great fundamentals and a lot of depth and lends itself very well to competitive play.

The possibiltoty to drop combos does not happen in autos or linkers. Noth players won’t drop these CA or not. When they do drop,it is manuals or juggles which CA does not help…

That’s a valid concern about the system to the extent that CAM does (quite intentionally) make button mashing a viable strategy in low-skill scenarios. With CAM enabled, your friends are not wrong. I guess that I don’t personally find that perception being all that dissimilar from what people have been saying about KI for years now though, namely that it’s easy and essentially “Rock Paper Scissors - The Game.” It’s really just a variation on that theme of “the game’s too easy for me, so I will not play it.”

From the dev’s standpoint, the principal question is simply “will this spur a net loss or gain in our player base?” A bunch of people have already written KI off at this point for a variety of reasons, so there’s just more space to try and bring in new people than there is in trying to convince those who haven’t purchased or bought into KI yet. That population has had 2 years of normal controls to get into the game - if they haven’t at this point, then it just makes more sense for the devs to see what they can do to get those new people in instead and make sure they have fun when they try it.

Maybe for you and other high level players, but as someone that’s still fairly new I can say that’s definitely not true. I’ve seen people drop standard combos without trying to go for juggles or manuals. I myself find the juggling aspect actually easier as it’s something I’m more used to and it comes intuitively. The thing I’ve struggled the most with is not inputs, as they’re extremely easy, rather knowing exactly where I am within a combo at all times. The constant transitioning between linkers to autos over and over again isn’t a natural feeling. Also, being that the game allows you get ahead of yourself doesn’t exactly always help either. The majority of my drops come from messing up the sequence. But, it’s something that will come with time, something CA will never be able to help me with.

The point I was trying to make was thst CA will not make a difference in combo drops except for people who don’t know how to do to do the linker inputs properly(which is the whole point of CA)

I understand and refuted your claim. Speaking from experience, qcb inputs is not why I drop my combos. That’s not the issue for me. But all of this is beside the main point anyway as it doesn’t speak to two equally skilled new players not being on equal footing if one is using CA and the other is not.

I have to imagine that most fighting enthusiasts probably chose the PS over the Xbox. So I would like to see what it does on PC before assuming more SF or MK fans wouldn’t want to put KI in their rotation. I think a lot of the FGC just doesn’t have access to KI right now. If I’m not mistaking I believe MKX sold twice as much on the PS4 than it did on the Xbox, which says a lot. Unfortunately, the move to make this a Windows 10 exclusive put them behind the 8 ball again and will limit their reach.

All of the people saying quarter circle input mistakes never happen above a certain level need to just can it. Repeating bs doesn’t make it true.
I watched cstyles ■■■■■ up aganos’ ultra just yesterday on his stream. I guess maybe you guys could teach him a thing or two.