The RE engine wouldn’t work for SF. Street Fighter just doesn’t work with realistic visuals. If anything, they should go with something like Arc System Works.
As for fresh faces… I don’t think that’s what we necessarily need. I hate to say it because of how impossible it feels, but I almost feel like we need a Tekken Tag Tournament/Smash Ultimate “Everyone is Here” kind of deals. I’ve never really been into the technical side of SF, to the point that I can’t tell SFIV and SFV’s gameplay apart all that well. So I’m not the person to ask about that part.
Engines don’t dictate visuals, by that logic Guilty Gear and DBFZ should both look like Gears of War (because they all run on the Unreal engine). At the same time though, modern SF’s specific art direction is clearly not made for 3D graphics, since most characters end up looking like the Hulk when rendered with that style.
Maybe they should go the Tekken route and go back to basics, like having SF3’s more grounded art style in a 3D renderer. That art style always felt like it would translate properly to 3D, which I can’t say about SF4 and SFV.
The concept of fresh faces worked great for SF3 and Tekken 3, but it also ended poorly for Soul Calibur 5…
Honestly they should just focus on making good characters, regardless if they are completely new or just new to SF (like Rolento and Poison in SF4). Besides, SF4 was very close to being like Smash Ultimate and everyone complained about the mass amount of clone characters, so if they go that route again a lot of legacy characters have to be reworked (similar to Omega SF4, they can easily make balanced versions of those movesets).
From what I’ve seen a lot of players want an evolution of SF3 Third Strike’s gameplay, instead of remaking SF2’s gameplay (which was the case with both SF4 and SFV). Of course Capcom knows the risk of messing with SF3’s gameplay style, but I feel now would be a good time to try and win back the people they drove off with SFV’s gameplay decisions.
What’s the appeal of the RE Engine exactly, besides how Capcom has happened to make several successful series reinventions and revivals using it? It’s supported Capcom in making some great (and amazing-looking) games but I don’t think they necessarily need it to do so; just look at Monster Hunter World.
Anyway, whatever happens SF6 would be wise to finally start using GGPO. I can only imagine how even more massive Street Fighter would become in the FGC if it actually had good online play.
whatever happens, capcom needs to quit ■■■■■■■ around and go with 2D sprites again. SF3 animated so ■■■■ well, it looked killer. just like the original darkstalkers, i was amazed at how fluid it looked it. they can do it like GG Xrd or DBFZ. i just wish they’d drop the 3D art and have a return to form. plus whatever else they do…dont make it like SF5.
Did it? In retrospect you have a lot of hardcore FGC folks who remember SF III fondly. But it was not an immensely popular game and has been credited for more or less killing the franchise until it was resurrected in 09 - by returning to a SF II + idea of gameplay.
I think that ship has sailed. I think it’s too hard to make and sell digital costumes for 3 D sprites and I think milking those sales is a big part of the monetization model for sf at this point. Maybe I’m wrong. But it’s also likely true that they don’t have the talent in house to do that kind of animation anymore.
Edit: as an aside, I don’t enjoy sfv all that much. But I think it gets more heat than it deserves. It’s a solid fighting game.
That’s why I think the Arc System Works art style is the best compromise. It’s more anime style and tries to emulate the look of 2D sprites, but it’s still 3D models so it’s still easy to make costumes for them.
Honestly though, I don’t really like 2D sprites. Unless you’re doing something like Cuphead, it just never looks good imo.
This is generally correct, though worth pointing out the flexibility depends to some extent on the engine itself. Unreal is an incredibly versatile game engine; not all engines live up to that kind of flexibility.
Mild quibble, but both SF4 and SF5 are “3D graphics”; all the characters and backgrounds are fully modeled 3D assets. If what you mean is realistic 3D, then that is what you should say. The muscle-milk art style of the modern Street Fighters is a design and artistic decision, being 2D versus 3D doesn’t figure into it.
SF3 (specifically Third Strike) is beloved now, but fans hated it when it released way back when. I think there is often measurable cost to a company when they try to innovate their roster too much…FG fans are notoriously ■■■■■ about their favorites not returning and having their spots “stolen” by guests or newcomers.
This is worth unpacking I think. For one, whatever fans were “lost”, it’s important to note that you’re talking about different groups of people. Plenty of Third Strike players decried SF4 as basic and gimmicky (DP->FADC->ultra is nothing if not a robbery mechanic) and didn’t bother moving on, and a subsection of SF4 players similarly decried SFV as basic and gimmicky and didn’t bother moving on. To what I think is their credit, Capcom innovates the core SF’s sufficiently enough between each title that a certain amount of drop-off is almost expected. Tons of fans dropped SF over 3’s removal of core favorites and a too-complex system of parries (which in the old arcade days was difficult to even know about if there wasn’t a dedicated scene), many SF3 fans balked at 4, et cetera et cetera.
As to innovating on Third Strike’s gameplay, I guess I’d just be curious to see if there’s really a constituency for it. Certainly there are groups within the FGC that would love to see this, but is that group really larger than the SF4 purists or the new blood that SFV brought in? Maybe, maybe not. I do think that Third Strike’s core mechanics would go over much better these days though, if only due to the ease of obtaining information here in the internet age. Parries wouldn’t be an obscure and borderline arcane mechanic with the advent of Google and Twitter, so at the very least I think casuals would be more open to it than they were back in the early-mid nineties.
Quality sprite work is indeed magnificent, and SF3 had some great animations. Unfortunately, quality sprite work is both expensive and time-consuming, and the more companies move away from it the more newer generations of workers don’t grow up learning how to do it well. It’s not a coincidence that no major FG’s use sprites anymore. ASW has obviously shown that creating animated-style characters with 3D models is possible (and looks phenomenal to boot), but to date they’re the only big hitter that I’m aware of who knows how to do that.
The Arc engine is fantastic at creating anime-style characters, but it’s notoriously difficult to make alternate costumes with. ASW has said a few times that creating an alternate costume within their engine costs basically the same amount of resources as creating a brand new character. It handles palette swaps easily enough, but trying to change costumes necessitates them more or less making something entirely new.
Assuming that was directed at me? I don’t know - character modeling of the type used in fighting games is pretty decently outside my wheelhouse. ASW is doing something extremely unique in how they create anime moments within Unreal though, so I’m not surprised the system has weird limitations like that.
If I had to guess, I’d assume they accomplish a lot of their visual flourishes with hand animations and the like as opposed to just slapping clothing models on top of a basic skeleton the way that SFV does. DBFZ selectively scales different body parts during their cinematic moments, for instance; that kind of distortion tends to not play well with the paired assets (clothes) around it. I imagine the same is true for a lot of the capes and tassels and whatnot that ASW has flying behind their characters…they’re probably putting a lot of time into making sure those pieces animate the way they want to for every interaction.
True, but we’ve also gotten surprises in recent years: For example, I never expected MT Framework to make massively living environments in Monster Hunter World. But in the end it really boils down to how they use the tools they are given; we’ve all seen countless badly optimized games made on capable engines, and surprises done on lesser engines (like Inside being made in the Unity engine).
I was referring to how they draw their characters in 2D, but when they translate that same style to 3D it just doesn’t work like it should. This was especially true with character proportions (giant feet, Chun-Li’s Hulk hands in the initial reveal of SF4, etc.). As I said earlier, going the Tekken route with more realistic details and proportions would probably fix a lot of those problems, but even adapting SF3’s art style may suffice since it was never too over the top (save for the weirder characters).
True, but there is always the risk of stagnation with just bringing everyone back, and a lot of companies at least try to avoid the “Call of Duty” situation where every new game is just the same game people played last year. I always saw it as a weird balancing act, where they can’t stay rooted in the past but going to far to the future is no better. There is also the risk of remaking a legacy character in a way no one likes (I saw people who were very bitter about Ibuki’s redesigned moveset in SFV for example).
I think the problem is that Capcom somehow managed to alienate both pros and casuals with their decisions in SFV, and that is prompting some people to want them to go back to SF3’s gameplay to revive that playstyle. I’m sure you’re right in that the outcry is far less then what the internet has shoved in our collective faces, but with Capcom taking mostly pro players’ input for SFV I wouldn’t be surprised if they did listen to the statements of “make it like Third Strike!” and took it to heart in the future.
Also correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t other FG developers over the years also look to Third Strike as inspiration for making their own games? For example, I remember the gameplay director of Skullgirls talking of how he saw games like Third Strike as the best examples of how to do certain ideas in fighting games, and some aspects of SG were inspired by it (like Big Band’s parry mechanic). Then of course there was also Yatagarasu, which was basically made as an homage to Third Strike.
That makes a lot of sense. It’s probably a painstaking frame-by-frame effort to create the illusion of sprites in those ArcSys games in general, somewhat similar to creating actual sprites. They’d have to go through that all over again for every new costume.
I actually really like the current art style of the series with SF5 and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. IMO The biggest problem with SF5 in the visual department is how Capcom started cheaping out on the animation quality in later seasons, which soiled what was a pretty well-animated game at launch.
Even Akuma looks more normal in Tekken 7. Really shows the contrast in artsytles.
There is still weirdness though, like how the texture filtering makes everyone look like clay, and it’s impossible to avoid Ken’s face (which if I recall was outsourced, but still). And like SF4, the art direction still makes almost everyone look like the Hulk’s extended family in terms of muscular structures and proportions. It’s just awkward all around, though I still feel that style would look proper as 2D sprites (though still grossly exaggerated of course).
They alienated people with SF4 also is the point I really want to make. Lots of notable pros really don’t like SFV it’s true, but lots of others emphatically do. Others don’t seem to mind it one way or the other and are simply content to play the newest entry in their favorite fighting game. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Capcom looked to Third Strike for inspiration. I just also wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t, or if they kept that level of inspiration fairly small. SFV defines Street Fighter for lots of new players out there, and that’s not nothing. I’m willing to bet more people have played and stuck with 5 than ever touched SF3.
@Blacklash93 Yeah, I actually think SFV is a pretty good looking game for the most part. It’s vibrant and colorful, and there’s some very good animation work in most of the characters. On the higher end, SFV is one of those games where you legitimately get a feel for a character’s personality by the way they fight, and that’s always impressive. The unevenness of the game’s animation is the real issue; otherwise I think it looks fine. Modern SF proportions have always been jank - Ryu’s gorilla hands didn’t start in SFV.
It might look the best, but ASW is not Capcom, and has no reason to let Capcom use their engine or provide technical assistance for developing such a system. Either Capcom pays ASW to do this, or they spend their own time/resources making something in-house. Given that Sony apparently bankrolled SFV’s development, I am dubious that such expense from Capcom is likely or wise. The difficulty in creating alt costumes is not a trifling detail - as Andy pointed out, it seems to be a core pillar of Capcom’s monetization strategy for at least this SF. If a company can get a mostly fine looking game that they can get solid post-launch monetization on, and a beautiful game that is time or resource-intensive to monetize, then they will choose the former almost every time. Capcom’s not in this to make fans happy - they’re trying to make money.
True, but it also helped that the game was overall well-animated. Also the feet weren’t the only issue I have with the later games, the faces and over-muscled bodies are still present, as are the over-the-top animations that only further the issue in some cases. Like trying too hard to be cartoony I feel.
Monster Hunter World was proof that they can technically do both, but then again that game is favored by the higher-ups if I recall correctly. Kind of a shame the golden years are gone, back when Capcom fighters were actually given the needed attention to be the best they could be. Now it’s either low-budget stuff like MvCI or situations like SFV.