How would you improve KI's gameplay going forward?

General Discussion
122

While it wasn’t the nicest response it wasn’t particularly unwarranted, the context that it gave was that I basically said that this game was for simpletons as oppose to smarter players. An that isn’t what I meant by it at all. I basically at a face value insulted the game that I enjoy alongside so many others, an how dare I in turn insult you or anyone else that plays this game.

I’m in a spot right now where I’m upset with the community because I expect more out of the people I’m playing, and I figured by 3 years they’d all grow into smarter players. I personally am trying to get over that expectation and when I recognize a bum I need to treat them as such in play and blow them up. I’ve been expecting players to make sound decisions and has resulted in me overthinking a lot of players.

But the reactions I’ve seen over Riptor’s Ultimate, and the fact that people just aren’t getting better at the game has me super disappointed. An instead of being proud of my community I’m ashamed of their behavior.

4 Likes
123

Chess is considered to be an intellectual’s game, while checkers is considered to be a children’s game. The colloquialism “you’re playing checkers, while I’m playing chess,” is meant to be a direct insult akin to “you’re not at all on my level.” Thus, saying that something is checkers while something else is chess is a colloquial insult.

I don’t believe @BigBadAndy was intending to insult the person posting directly, just that opinion.

I’d also assume, based on @ZeroSyndicate’s response that he didn’t intend it to be as insulting as the colloquialism implies. He simply thinks each game differently.

EDIT: And there you go.

So yeah, I don’t think we have a conflict here so much as a misunderstanding.

I can understand the feeling of being underwhelmed by the quality of play out there, but to be ashamed of their behavior? That sounds like somewhat of a separate issue. This might not be the thread to elaborate on that in, but I wonder what it might take to bring the community, both casual and competitive players alike, to a place where you’d be more proud than ashamed.

1 Like
124

Even so. Even if it was misunderstood, saying someone’s opinion is absurd and doesn’t merit a response is very much an insult. The way BigBadAndy’s saw it, he was attacking the game so he went on the offensive immediately. Hence what I meant by a certain pattern I see here.

125

It’s a great response, so thanks for that. I’m actually pretty busy at work so I don’t have time to go through point by point but I think it’s a worthwhile discussion. KI more or less throws a huge number of relatively simple decisions at you constantly. While the choices may be simple and the execution barrier is low, the higher level strategy comes from fishing out your opponent’s tendencies while disguising your own. SFV, to me, feels more like a game where either one guy doesn’t know what to do (and gets blown up) or both guys know exactly what they should do and the winner is the guy with better reaction times on whiff punishes who doesn’t drop his combos (which isn’t all that hard in SFV compared to III or IV).

This is a gross oversimplification, of course. But I think it’s enjoyable to think about the differences in the games and why we like the things we do. I’d love to continue this conversation any time.

1 Like
126

I don’t mean to speak for Andy, but saying SFV is an intellectuals game, while KI is a children’s game is an absurd opinion. So absurd that it doesn’t merit a response. Maybe you think it’s splitting hairs here, but that’s not attacking the person with the opinion. Just the opinion itself.

If you say that KI is a game for simpletons, I’d probably be put off by that too. I wouldn’t attack you directly, but yeah, I’d want to counter that opinion with one of my own or I might see it as not worth responding to.

I don’t think that’s a big deal, especially considering the fact that Zero didn’t mean it that way and now we know that. I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for here. It was a misunderstanding and everyone seems to recognize that. No big deal. :slight_smile:

1 Like
127

You’re understandkng of communication and both the meaning of and intention behind words is clearly nothing like mine. It’s probably best if you don’t try to jump into conversations in order to be offended in behalf of people who are not offended by explaining your interpretation of what other people meant.

Just because you’re mad at me for arguing with you about the definition of creative is no reason to run around gumming up other threads with nonsense.

3 Likes
128

I look at SFV an say, “wow, what a tone deaf developer, what a company that is so focused on one thing and its working because everyone is buying into it. They aren’t accessible, and they seem to focus on what THEY want”

I look at KI, and we have a SUPER grass roots community, a developer that ALWAYS hears out feedback and responds to us accordingly. They are willing to simply support the game, give us opportunities to support the game and the community. Give us content for free on occasion and content even after the game is basically done.

but all the while we have a LOT of casual players. Which IS NOT BAD, I don’t have ANY problem with casual players. But I do have a problem with the entitlement that I see a lot of comments have, “Kilgore $10 why is he not $5 this is absurd i don’t want to support the community i just want the character” “There isn’t enough violence in the riptor ultimate” “X character is SUPER OP” “shago is a pay to win character” “what is IG thinking”“they should give us more money to support the game”

There are players out there giving you content daily to consume, support the game in various ways, an push it to be a better game. Then there are those that just crap all over it expecting more and more. The game should be easier, the game should be bigger. We’re all just tired of the same bs from people that aren’t helping the community but hurting it. So we in turn get tired of the player base. There are people that love the content are grateful and super supportive, they’re some of the best people I’ve seen out of this community. Conversations I have with @STORM179 for example are some of the most constructive conversations I’ve had over the game. There are players that I’ve spoken to about improving their game and instead of bashing the game they GENUINELY want to learn and get better. I guess ME personally to be proud, show me I haven’t wasted my time these last three years. Show me that my efforts meant something, because those that show me otherwise are MUCH MUCH louder than those that are here for the right reasons.

The learning thing is an issue that I have in seeing the game reward these players that don’t know what they’re doing or why. But the game allows it to work so they won’t learn otherwise. The other day I fought an Eyedol that felt they could do whatever they wanted to whenever no matter the life deficit. An despite me showing otherwise they still did fairly well because I’m not expecting the opponent to do absurd things. Some players I’ve heard in conversation literally say, “I’m a good X player and I’ve done this to X player” then watch these players get away with absurdity but then drown in pools. I destroyed one of those players at NEC this past year. I think the game gives a false sense of player quality with how it assists in so many regards.

7 Likes
129

totally agree the meta in KI is super deep and unforgiving. whereas the meta of SFV is generally straightforward.

I always love talking about the game and theory so any time!

3 Likes
130

What I’ve come to realize is that the whole “footsies” thing can just be KI’s. It coincides with Neutral, it doesn’t have to be grounded, but involves projectiles, wall setups, trail blazers in the air, pyro bombs, walking forward, shatter…

What I enjoyed about KI’s neutral is that there are layers. You have a facet of the ground game that evolves into something more. Jago doesn’t have to throw just a fireball since he can charge it now, Aganos can put down a wall with his club, forcing more pressure, Riptor has mortars for indirect pressure.

Compared to Street Fighter, where a lot of it, at least now, consists of the first shimmy to crush counter, and two combos, good bye life bar.

It’s very simplified. Lot of people might like that, I’m on the side of indifference, where I can live with it, but my opinion can change. What I liked more about SF4 is that you can play each character in layers. Cody is my example. You can play part zoning with rocks, walk forward and pressure with Zonk, play the frame trap game, list goes on. You didn’t have to play him in one strict way.

But Balrog, it’s all one dimensional. Mix-up city and corner carry off one low-low xx V-Trigger xx Dash Straight. Where is the creativity? The only facet I see that is original is different uses of TAP, and each Balrog user’s neutral game. But people who aren’t invested into fighting games like we are won’t see this.

Perhaps I digressed, ultimately, I see the benefits of both system’s way of expressing neutral/footsies but it’s a matter of tastes that right now I enjoy this one more than the other.

5 Likes
131

I agree with a vast majority of your post, but especially this part in particular. I don’t want to blindly support a game just because I enjoy it. I like giving feedback, even when it doesn’t come from the most learned of places (though I do try to stay in my lane for the most part as a casual).

But when I see some of the griping like what you’re describing, or the sheer amount of vitriol over certain issues, and the amount of negativity it can all wind up generating, it does seem a bit pointless and ultimately deflating.

I said that I agree with the vast majority of what you said instead of all of it because I’m curious if you had the time to elaborate a little on this statement, because this sounds like something that could perhaps improve the gameplay to you, if I’m not mistaken.

I didn’t want to just agree with this idea out of hand because I’m more curious as to what you’d want to see happen to the game to help avoid this issue.

1 Like
132

I keep forgetting to think that KI’s “footsies” are unique to KI. An the type of footsies that KI possesses I personally don’t want as I like SF footsies better. It’s why I generally have stuck to playing characters that utilize neutral in almost the same way SF would.

Personally I need to keep reminding myself I’m playing KI, it isn’t SF, THIS is KI. An I’m going to push myself to keep that mentality, not think about what this game doesn’t have but think about things that it does have and how it works in THIS game. This game IS THIS GAME, an that game is THAT GAME.

As we speak I’m still playing KoF instead of streaming KI because I’m having fun FINALLY figuring out the combo system and what I can link to other moves and trying options. I have creative freedom but in a very constricted unforgiving space, an I like that a lot. I like the idea in games like this that if I whiff something someone can take advantage of it. An in KI it’s the same but specials are also going to be utilized to do just that as well.

3 Likes
133

You couldn’t really improve on this without changing the core gameplay of KI. Combos are easy in this game, opener>linker/auto>linker/auto>ender. special>button>special>button>special. It’s easy an timing is all relatively the same. We all know there are three options in terms of strength and breaking light, medium, heavy all relatively the same, we all understand the rules.

Jago I really like because you can hit confirm pretty much in a grounded state into a combo. Which yes you can do with any character but it’s more traditional. I think players have a crutch with the combo system, the combo plays out in a fairly easy fashion because you have very minimal input in said combo. That is how the game works.

So you have characters like shago as an example, he can dash press a button and a combo is initiated. did you really earn that? did you really think about what is happening or why you did it? or did you do it because KI footsies?

Tusk has deflect, which I don’t think helps a player’s neutral at all. you press a button and if it is at roughly the same time as the opponent you’ll deflect and get rewarded. but you pressed this button because why? do you know? where is the placement of your opponent that caused you to press that button? St.HP for example is a GIANT hurtbox that moves across the screen stopping people from jumping over and making a direct attack given timing. super punishable on block, or if it whiffs. but you CAN for example press another button and maybe get a deflect. so did you press that button KNOWING you’d be safe, or are you pressing it to hope you hit?

omen goes into combo by simply pressing kicks, you slide which is not safe, but then press kicks because its flurry. Or you’ll press kicks in a close range situation but outside the range of the opponent. if it hits, you get a combo, if it doesn’t you keep doing it in hopes of the opponent making a mistake and getting hit.

Eyedol has a lot of nonsense that at first glance is overwhelming. he’s super unsafe, super weak, and when you understand its easier to cope with. But some players decide to keep doing things because of eyedol’s properties. Do you know what is or isn’t safe? or do you feel you’ve made a successful character choice because you keep making offensive decisions and sometimes get lucky because a LARGE amount of people don’t understand the character.

at high level I’m not concerned about this, you know why you’re doing what you’re doing and you’ll grow if you don’t understand. Low level I’m not sure the game is particularly teaching players given some scenarios and characters. A jump in opens a combo for example, what is the FIRST thing a new player to fighting games in general does? In a game like SFV you’ll learn pretty quick jumping in isn’t the best option. In KI you have that same thing, BUT there is indeed a reward if you land a jump in.

I worry that players THINK they’re better than they are, but the game doesn’t punish poor behavior properly. Breakers are a part of that problem, but the new PD change makes them less rewarding too.

1 Like
134

Not punishing poor behavior properly? Hmmmmm… is that really a bad thing for casuals? I mean KI could improve on this ingame, but if players want to learn and level up their skill, they have plenty of resources to do it. That’s how I did it (poor reasoning because I know that just because it worked for me doesn’t mean it’ll work for everybody else).

You’ll have button mashers in every fighting game. I don’t exactly know how KI can teach the player the universal rules of fighting games (spacing, hit confirming, etc.) just by playing.

Can a SF, Tekken, or INSERT GAME player obtain a high skill level just by playing the game? Or do they actually have to do research and exchange tips outside of a game to level up? idk. But I guess the OG pros somehow reached a high level of skill before the internet, youtube, tutorials, and frame data existed.

135

I’ve seen a few pros saying that ki is in a frustrating place at the mo. (Hksmash)
Just wondering if anyone knows or has any ideas of by what they mean. Or is it because their mains are getting needed?

136

Really You’re probably the only one. I find match all the time.

137

if you miss a dp in SF for example you’ll receive a massive full combo punish, you might think twice about doing it again. Thus the game teaching you out of a bad habit.

138

In KI if you can’t keep your opponent in check then they will have free reign to do the more out there stuff, this is not really unusual in FG’s at all.

139

In the case of HKsmash, I think he might be frustrated with some immaturity with his KI/twitch audience. He wasnt happy with how TJ was handled either. Keep in mind that he also gets animated and salty in his streams so his audience will probably reflect that.

But there are quite a few things to be frustrated with KI from a pro perspective. 1) money in the tournament scene isn’t as big as last year. 2) other pros are taking a break and lashing out which incites more salt 3) having to adapt to frequent patches and changes in core mechanics of the game.

140

Well, this is becoming my new favorite thread.

There’s a lot of ideas in here. I think the idea that the game encourages your development as a player is an interesting one, but I honestly don’t think KI does this worse than any other game. I just think certain things kind of stand out in KI because they are different than convention (i.e. Street Fighter) and it helps you notice suboptimal play. But SF is filled with suboptimal players not learning how to be better at the game as well.

I am not a tournament player. I’m not trying to be one and I don’t pretend to be one. I really appreciate that KI lets me compete with people in the mental competition without having to spend hours blabbing up my optimal combos. I definitely get away with some holes in my game because people either don’t know how to counter Glacius or because they think k I’m better than I am so they limit their own options to avoid things I might not even be able to do. But that’s true in other games too. As far as people thinking they are better than they really are - the FGC is 18-34 year old males. This is a group that always thinks they are better than they really are at everything, lol! Don’t make KI carry that.

I do think KI has become very matchup knowledge dependent as the roster has expanded and that exacerbates some of the things you are talking about. Even at the highest levels it’s clear that Sleep takes advantage of unfamiliar matchups. But for me, pet of what keeps a game fun and interesting is knowing I have things I can improve on.

I just see a tendency of people to look at it in a lopsided way. If why you know from playing SF helps you out in KI, the KI community is like “c’mon in, the waters fine.” But if what you learned in SF doesn’t work in KI, then it’s because KI is flawed. And similarly, if what you learn in order to be successful in KI doesn’t work in SF, that’s because KI is flawed. If the definition of what a fighting game should be is SF, then of course SF will win every comparison. But why would you want to learn how to playback SF by playing KI? You know this, but I’m just stating the obvious. The outcome of that, though, is that if KI doesn’t emphasize SF style footsies that’s not somehow letting players down or failing to properly educate them (because why would KI educate them about how to play SF?). The same way it would be absurd to criticize SF because it doesn’t teach players how to properly combo break.

I know I’m rambling here but I did just want to push back a little on your views about Tusk’s deflect. If you are randomly mashing with the hope that deflect will save you, you aren’t going to make it too far with Tusk in KI. You have to understand when Tusk’s different deflect moves are likely to work. That’s not a transferable skill set to other characters or other games, but it doesn’t need to be. And while some people may sometimes beat “better” players doing random stuff, you can find that in all games.

3 Likes
141

KI teaches that too.

You still see players throw out random DPs though at a high level (Ex Ken). I even see the Thompson Special in SFV sometimes (DP right after wiffing a DP).

I think a better example is crush countering. You cant press buttons if you’re being pressured in the corner in SFV. You’ll get blown up and half your life bar is gone. In KI most characters have a way to escape or you can mash instinct to momentarily pause the game to regain your composure. So KI players are less likely to learn that hard lesson.