Hisako is a better grappler than RAAM

#1

Completely invincible startup grab, recapture aerial, teleport, version of regular grab that can lead to combos, fast movement speed, counter into combo, wall jump, etc.

Maybe it’s just me, but when there’s a grappler character who isn’t as good as a grappling game as a non-grappler character there’s a problem.

#2

RAAM has a 2 frame command grab.

/thread.

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#3

Don’t mock RAAMs abilities. You won’t like what happens when you mock RAAMs abilities.

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#4

So this isn’t a thing. And aside from her normal throw, the other items you mentioned have nothing to do with being a grappler.

Raam’s grabs have considerably more range than most of Hisako’s, and are faster than all but her quickest option, which is also exceptionally shallow.

They’re very different characters whose grabs interact with their unique toolsets, but I don’t think there’s much cause to say Hisako is a better grappler. She might perhaps be a better character, but when talking strictly about grabs, Raam has a lot of advantages over her.

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#5

stifles laughter

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#6

Doesn’t Hisako have like, the slowest move speed? The only way she can cover distance is with her dash and teleport.

#7

Command grab =/= grappler. Raam is the truest grappler this game has. Thunder is the second place at hybrid grapler.

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#8

I actually would call Hisako part grappler.

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#9

It’s not a thing? Ive faced a number of Hisakos that do execute a seemingly immediate invincible grab after I knock them down and try to maintain pressure, after I condition them out of always goung for that immediate wake-up counter. Lol. Hisako is such a pain in the ■■■.

I actually agree that she’s as good of a grappler as RAAM. Not Thunder though.

#10

She may have the slowest walk speed. But let’s be real. She’s able to cover the ground in a variety of ways, not the least of which is a teleport. So that walk speed argument is kind of silly. Plus, she scurries around like a damn roach when the light comes on also. I don’t wanna hear about how slow Hisako is. She’s very fast.

#11

I want you to seriously compare RAAM to Hisako in terms of movement that’s not only walking speed. The only other thing that RAAM has is his running grab which is ridiculously easy to counter unless you have meter for a Kryll cancel.

#12

-RAAM’s have more range

Yes, a move that sucks you in from half-screen for an inescapable command grab has the same range as grabs that, at most, require 2 steps of distance to be viable

-None of her other tools attribute to grappling

Options after getting Possessioned, an un-grab techable, un… quick rise… able (?) command grab that places you directly in front of her :

Stay on the ground and get re-possesioned/influenced and be back at square 1

Jump and catch a recapture/knockdown ORZ or block it and get nothing in return due to it being safe on block

Attempt a quicker move and get beaten out by her speed/Catch a counter in the ■■■■ and usually a Possession ender putting you back at the beginning

Eat her mixups/mind game combos

Escape, but have her dash like a cockroach and teleport around until you slip up and she’s on you again

And yeah, I’m pretty sure Possession either has invincible startup or my moves are glitching.

#13

Serious answer? Okay!

AHEM

I think they’re both just fine for their OWN reasons. They both may be able to grapple, but it’s the OTHER things that help really set them apart. Hisako has her counters and wrath, Raam his high-damage kryll and ground-based mixups.

#14

RAAM has a Full Screen, projectile invulnerable, armored roady run Command grab that applies poison.
His Dominance grab also has multiple incarnations that are faster (and with better range in some cases) than a jab or throw. The stomps can lead to flipouts for entire life bars taken from grabs, and if your opponent is break happy they serve as easy counterbreaker bait.
Plus, his instinct forces the opponent to choose between repeated grabs or a massive one chance break cash out (or worse, if you lock out early and he gets to let it rock), while simultaneously making both harder to defend against.

If a Hisako is trying to grab you a ton, jump out of it. If they’re countering a ton, bait the counter with an empty jump or by stopping pressure for a second.
All versions of On Ryo Zan are unsafe on block, so her grounded mix-ups are easy to defend against once you figure out how to block them.
Both her dash and her teleport leave her wide open for a kick in the face.
Possession can be countered by walking backwards in some situations, and jumping in all situations.
If you’re getting caught trying to counter the suck, you’re probably getting eaten during start-up.

Look, General RAAM may have it kinda hard in a lot of areas, but where he excels he dominates. Hisako is more general with some more tricky options, but she also has a lot more to lose if she guesses wrong since whiffing her grabs/counters or overusing her dashes/teleports leaves her wide open to get clobbered in the face. I’ve played a lot of both Hisako and RAAM; got them both to 50 and have wielded them both to varying degrees of success against both friends and randoms. I can even tell you there are characters who’s grabs I’m much more afraid of than either Hisako or RAAMs, if only because I don’t run into nearly enough good RAAM players (even Hisako is kinda hard to find at times). Kan-Ra and Gargos have both at different points scared the hell out of me with their grab games.

It all comes down to preference, really. If you think Hisako’s game plan sounds like more fun, give her a whirl. If you want to stick it out with RAAM and learn to get better with him, let him continue his march. I can tell you from experience both characters have their own merits and rewards, as well as shortcomings.

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#15

When you were talking about command grabs Storm thought you were talking about influence rather than possession, since influence is at least throw invulnerable (so is Raam’s shadow command grab by the way). Possession has absolutely no invulnerability whatsoever and can be avoided with throw invulnerable moves or jumping, the same as any other grab.

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#16

:sweat_smile: lol i dont think hes mock of raam abilities . but raam should really be able to grab at better range a sort of grab with a attract effect like when hisako open her mouth to influence you lol …to bring them in the raam hands. but from far they can escape with jump as for hisako. should be really cool for the big boy :sunglasses:

#17

Big, general difference: Hisako wants you to be scared of putting pressure on her. She thrives on your fear of her. But you actually need to be scared of putting pressure on RAAM.

Hisako baits punishment. Jump in the air so she can tag you up there with her insane reach. Whiff over her head so she can rekka punish. Jump in with an attack so she can parry and counter. She can command grab, but her grabs are only good if they end or open a combo that wasn’t broken. If you can quell your fear of her and mess with her expectations, getting close to her isn’t a problem.

RAAM controls the fight. Emergence, if executed in a timely fashion, shuts down literally any attempt to get close to him while he’s standing (even rekkas are risky, because forward movement can put you in contact with RAAM before the second strike breaks his Kryll shield). Light dominance punishes any grounded attempt at a meaty and reverses most moves in the game. Medium emergence shuts down air meaties and basic air advances. If he opens you up and triggers instinct, there’s a better-than-average chance you’re dead (when I’ve been his victim, combo breaker stress is much higher than it normally is against other characters). Even his regular throw is the most damaging throw in the game. If he wants, he can win the fight on throws and command grabs alone, since they do so much damage. Getting close to RAAM is almost always a problem. It’s why characters with zoning (not even just dedicated zoners) always play so lame against him.

Hisako is arguably a more intuitive character than RAAM is (which sort of translates into “better” for many), but he does what a grappler should do (unavoidable/unbreakable threatening damage up close) far better than Hisako does.

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#18

As would I, but I don’t think that’s the issue at hand.

Of course when I saw teleport mentioned as one of the tools that makes Hisako a better “grappler”, I kind of stopped reading. You know, because I dropped my phone from laughing so hard.

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#19

Never said that Hisako’s teleport makes her a better grappler. Maybe you need to pay more attention. I’m hoping that your screen cracked.

#20

Nope, not a thing. If Hisako grabs you on her wakeup when you tried to push a button, then you missed your meaty. She has no non-counter option that will succeed against a meaty button press. Obviously influence will beat a meaty throw, but it loses to buttons clean.

The effective range on possession and kryll rush are very similar actually, including the shadow versions. Both moves are jumpable on reaction outside of very close range (and possession has a super distinct audio cue as well). Possession is also similar to kryll rush in that it is throwable, and is weaker than kryll rush in that it is fully vulnerable to all attacks as well. Possession in cancelable into counter or descent, which is very useful and adds wrinkles, but in general the two grabs are much more alike than you seem to think.

You don’t really have to keep stipulating “untechable” when describing possession - there’s only one techable command grab in the game, and neither of these characters has it. Possession also can (and should) be quick-rised.

In terms of the follow-ups, kryll rush’s +4 frame advantage grants almost the exact same oki options as possession. If the opponent jumps, your button catches them in pre-jump frames, if they sit still, they eat a command grab, if they try to backdash, depending on character and Raam’s button choice, they could either get stagger kicked or kryll rushed again. The options on defense are the exact same. Raam punishing jumpouts with a low into combo is not meaningfully different than Hisako tagging you with an air-ORZ to recap (and it shouldn’t be recapping you in the first pace, because you should be quick rising possession).

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