Growing the Community: Combo Assist Mode Discussion

@TheKeits : In the combo example diagrams in the blog post, are the blue foot symbols with the M’s on them meant to be orange?

On this note, it might be worth considering adding in a small visual/audio cue to indicate when a linker is correctly executed with a motion, so that a player trying to ween themselves off of combo assist can have some confidence that they’re doing the quarter-circles right.

Hm, it seems like this system could lead to a bunch of new option selects, with not having to guess where your opponent is going to dash/teleport to in order to confirm an opener on them. On the other hand, combo assist could lose a few option selects too, ones where you rely upon a directional input working if and only if your opponent pops up on a particular side. (Option-selecting Spinal’s teleport by reacting to the startup with a medium wind kick is an example, but combo assist doesn’t break this one, so iuno.)

The other thing I was going to bring up, is the potential for this to make capitalizing off a lockout easier. I doubt it’ll make a substantial difference, though – and hell, if it means pro players actually milk their lockouts for big damage more consistently, then I’m all for it.


Those thoughts out of the way, I still want to say that I’m glad to see this in the game, awesome work to the engineers at IG for working this into the system, and I hope a lot of new players benefit from it! :smile:

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It probably does make milking a lockout marginally easier… instead of HP, QCB LP, now you just alternate HP, LP a bunch. But I dunno, if I see a lockout I have lots of time in my HP auto-double to input a quarter circle, and some characters (Jago, for instance) would rather do HP, MP around the world chain most of the time, which means I will need to remember to hold back (which I will probably forget at first). For example… a common “late lockout milk” for Jago is HP double, MP double, light laser sword linker, DP ender. With combo assist on, this is arguably harder to input than normal… you have to do back + HP, back + MP, neutral + LP, forward + HP. Maybe a bit awkward if you’re used to doing quarter circles already, so it’s probably player and character dependent whether it will really help that much.

The best part of the mode, though, is that you can give the game to an absolute beginner and say “just press a bunch of buttons”. They could roll their face across the controller and the character would start doing some really cool things as soon as they hit someone, and they’ll probably accidentally get enders sometimes too if they’re also rotating the joystick wildly. If someone picks up an Xbox One for Christmas and tries this free to play game, and feels like an amazing badass because they just did a 20 hit combo for half your life, some of them are gonna get hooked.

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nice feature. I hope it brings in a ton of new players. I like these small innovations. It also shows that KI has plenty of future to look forward to.

What we need next is a Rewind function for if you lockout… This was not a serious comment.

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Nice! This will definitely help my friends and family to enjoy the game more. :slight_smile: Note they’re not familiar with doing linkers like dqcbk consistently.

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Thanks. This is helpful information.

So it seems to acts like an auto combo in other games where an unfamiliar player can hit a bunch of buttons and do a cool combo, making it less intimidating to pick up the controller. If just getting an otherwise reluctant player to play is the goal, I think this will help. I’m planning to show the game soon to friends who don’t play fighters and this will be useful for exactly that situation. Giving them the controller and just saying hit buttons to start a combo will make those situations easier. The characters are a big draw to the game for them, but I know the system will be off-putting.

However, the moment you have to start explaining linkers, manuals, auto-doubles, etc I think it all goes out the window. I played fighters since SF2 and had no idea what all those meant until I got the game in season 2 and did the dojo. Even then it still gets confusing. It’s just an inherent problem of KI I think.

I’m still a bit skeptical about there not being enough trade-off for bypassing what I think is a very modest execution requirement, but we’ll see I guess.

I was more referring to the possibility that a situation arises where you can barely modify which linker you input in reaction to a lockout (or go into a combo trait instead) using combo assist, whereas buffering a quarter-circle beforehand might edge over into sub-reactable time, hence cutting off the option of switching to a damage linker or trait before a reaction can kick in.

But it’s pretty obscure, and certainly not enough to convince me to convert (nor is any of the other stuff that’s been brought up, really), and I agree that next to the benefits of letting absolute beginners get easy combos, this stuff doesn’t even register as important. Also, if it’s not clear yet, I’m not exactly hung up on making sure simplified controls don’t tarnish the purity of the game: I’m all for letting combo assist rock and seeing if competitive players discover any tech.

So I wrote this stuff in another thread, but I think I’d rather explore it here. First, some thoughts on what some common Jago openings become:

  • crMK xx medium laser sword is a good footsie tool in neutral, which goes into a combo if it hits and leads to frame advantage if blocked. With combo assist this (as far as I can tell) becomes down+MK -> MP -> buttons.
  • With combo assist, double roundhouse can be cancelled into an opener with a button press on reaction if it hits, and followed up with buttons (e.g. crMK xx laser sword from above) if it gets blocked. This is something like fwd+HK -> MP -> buttons on hit; and e.g. fwd+HK, MK -> MP, MP -> MK on block for two frame traps that confirm on hit.
  • HP xx medium wind kick is a decent long-range poke into combo that is safe on block, a good option if you’re worried about double roundhouse getting shadow countered on reaction (but, er, you’re new to KI, so that shadow counter is probably not on the cards, so you should probably just abuse double roundhouse). This becomes HP -> MP -> buttons.

KI is a very pressure-driven game. The more I think about it, the more it becomes clear to me that combo assist really streamlines common pressure options. I imagine the PaulB special becomes some crouching button into doube-tap MK? Hopefully new players will have a lot of fun discovering this stuff.


But also, it made me think of a few things.

Firstly, some specials might make more sense as defaults than others. For example, I’m yet to conceive of any good use for Jago’s light laser sword outside of a combo – but if you replace it on the LP assist cancel with a light endokuken, suddenly we’re doing cool things like HP xx fireball pressure. For some characters it might not be possible to lay out all their most important cancels optimally like this, but it’d be nice if IG put some thought into this and didn’t feel constrained to putting the same special on all three punches or kicks.

Secondly, maybe it’s time to bring up the topic of introducing a SFV-style link buffer on the end of moves for manuals, and maybe even frame traps? It’d be cool to see more players, even new players managing to execute manuals and tight pressure without being intimidated by the execution barrier (which is overcome by the harrowing ordeal of sitting on your arse and listening to a podcast while you unthinkingly do the thing over and over again, anyway).

That said, I’ve previously suggested that there is value in the manual execution barrier because your ability to execute manuals hopefully develops commensurately with your ability to break combos: players who struggle to break auto doubles and don’t have manuals go well together, and players who are proficient combo-breakers and have their manuals down go well together, and hopefully when you interpolate between those groups those facets remain well-aligned, so that players aren’t breaking combos too often or too rarely at a given level. In practice, I’m not sure how well this works out – I imagine there are players who really grind on manuals because they want to be hardcore or whatever, but never learn to break properly, and conversely I know there are people on these forums who put manuals in the “too hard” bucket, who I’d guess nevertheless can break reactable doubles consistently from having played for so long online. In practice it’s probably more a matter of players realizing where their game is weak – “am I getting broken too often?” vs “am I locking out too often/letting too many reactable doubles rock?” – and choosing to grind the relevant skill accordingly, moreso than two very different styles of proficiency happening to line up. I suspect that lowering the bar for manual execution isn’t going to throw that out of whack, especially considering that manuals will still require a presence and precision of intent that comes with placing a move at a specific timing, that’ll still require a lot of practice from newbies to pull off consistently.

Also the manual buffer probably has to happen if the frame trap buffer happens, and I really want effective frame trapping to be more accessible, because when I was figuring out what fighting games were all about, frame traps were a vital revelation and footsies felt hugely overrated.

lol what the heck, I just saw Max’s video. It looks like you can change between lights, mediums, and heavy’s with combo assist without using special moves.

Welp, looks like am permanently using assist mode, no reason to do specials in the middle of combos and make it more difficult for me to do combos. I’ve had lost Killer Ranked games because I dropped a special input.

At first I thought it would encourage people to look deeper into the combo system but forget that, it did the opposite for me, I’d rather have a simpler way to do combos.

Speaking of Max…
Here’s Maximilian’s video for anyone who’s curious about seeing this in action.

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I still don’t like the idea of never dropping a combo due to a missed input. People at all levels mess up inputs in all games. It’s part of the game. That’s why fighting games have such high execution entry levels. With this you will literally never drop a combo due to a messed up input because the game will fix it for you. I might not get the linker that I wanted, but any linker is better than a blowout or a drop because of a missed input.

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That’s exactly what they said it was. What did you think combo assistance was before watching Max’s video?

The issue comes from not worrying about dropped combos due to inputs anymore though. Which should be a thing. This will catch literally every single combo you do. It’s not like an assist like UMVC3 or MKX which will accept a slightly off input, this will completely fix it just because you hit a punch or a kick at the end. Also it doesn’t teach timing at all because you can mash during the entire combo. Maybe if they gave some indicator to the player who is using assist when they actually time it correctly that’d be alright. If I mash during my entire combo without this I’m gonna drop the thing or blow it out. This won’t happen with the assist. At least that’s my view. You’re guaranteed to get an entire combo for nothing more than slamming random buttons.

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I thought you would only be able to do one type. Like an only light combo, only medium combo, and only heavy combo. That way bronze players would stay in bronze and eventually figure out the system. But once I saw you could actually mix it up it pretty much is the Shago combo trait which is the only thing I do with him.

Now all I’ll ever do is keep assist on. No need to drop combos with a fireball motion like I do every now and then during my Killer Ranked matched.

You can still drop manuals, juggles, and combos outside the combo system. Also just mashing buttons will lead to more blowouts than it’ll fix.

But if it did that then these new players would just get their combos broken all the time which would just frustrate them more than dropping combos would.

That’s fine. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I’m just worried about a system that literally stops you from dropping combos ever. Blowouts are going to happen this I agree with. But even at Killer rank online people drop at least 1 combo a game due to a missed input. And that can honestly be massive to the point where you win because they dropped it. This won’t happen anymore because the assist will just give them a random linker of the strength of whatever they tried to do.

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I am so hyped for the new Assist! Definitely will get more people in. Plus I see no negative in this.

KI S3 IS GONNA BLOW OTHER FG’S OUT OF THE WATER

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I would think beginner wouldn’t even know how to combo break. That and they would learn to end combos fast. It would also teach them how the combos look like for light, medium, and heavies.

If you are dropping combos because of a missed fireball input, you are the target demographic for this mode, IMO. It helps beginners but not JUST beginners… it can help people of all types. So if you’re interested in turning this on, I’d say it’s doing its job.

Well… maybe, but dropped combos in KI are very rare at intermediate level and higher. KI is not a game where executing the combo is particularly hard, KI is more focused on other aspects (such as playing a strong combo break game and neutral game). Some characters have more execution in their combos (typically air characters like Cinder) and none of that changes here because that all operates outside the auto-double/linker system, so you will still see drops. You will just fewer drops by lower-level players (although, if they truly don’t know what they’re doing, they will blow out every combo and never do an ender, even with combo assist on).

Fewer drops by lower-level players without changing higher-level strategy can only be a good thing, I think.

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If you think about it, this mode could actually exist in a game like SF4 (for non-charge characters). Take Ryu for example… you assign P to fireball and K to tatsu (you’ll still have to input DPs manually). Now, instead of doing cr.MK xx QCF +HP for a fireball cancel, you simply do cr.MK -> HP. Links still exist and aren’t any easier, because they aren’t special move cancels, and if you want to chain jabs together, you hold back (or down-back) while doing it.

Do you think high-level SF4 play would change at all with this mode on? It wouldn’t at all, because all spacing is the same, and pros can cancel into fireball without any trouble already. If you want to DP someone who jumps, you still have to input the motion. Do you think someone who picks up fighting games for the first time would have lots of fun seeing his character do special moves easily? Would they have an easier time canceling standing moves into QCF (which is harder than crouching moves)? I think this is clearly true and of no detriment to the game.