You actually do have a good point with that OS, but honestly, didn’t this OS already exist? Not off the dp ender, but off the heavy laser sword ender.
Say you like to go after knockdown pressure, so manual into laser sword ender, into sweep…light fireball.
In that situation whether you drop the manual or not doesn’t matter, right?
Why does nobody get pissy about that?
With CAM, the OS just moved to a different ender…or was added to another ender. Not really a big deal, but yes…it is a thing.
Well, that’s not quite the same situation he’s describing.
But… let’s say instead of ending with DP ender, you choose to use laser sword ender. Then this “OS” works in normal mode; it doesn’t matter if you drop the manual, because you will get laser sword ender if your manual is correct OR heavy laser sword on block. It only really matters for those enders whose neutral move versions are really unsafe… and it’s usually DPs (which are also usually damage enders, so they are commonly used).
But these “safe accidental resets” happen fairly often outside of ender situations already. People drop manuals and get safe on block openers/frame traps mid-combo, and it’s much more common for this to actually be on purpose to trap a combo break attempt or whatever. So yeah, I dunno. The OS he described is an advantage, and something you definitely always want your character to have access to (ie, it is very strictly better), but I still don’t think it impacts high level play enough to worry about the mode overall. Like, if I played someone who had CAM on (but the custom version, where everything was disabled EXCEPT enders so he could take specific advantage of this OS), I’d just be like “sure, whatever I guess”. I’d be happy when he drops his manual because he didn’t cash me out for 20-25% extra damage and instead is just at plus frames, which I can probably deal most of the time. I guess Lycan thinks it’s a bigger deal, though.
it is really hard to not comment on this thread.
I have said it more than once - i just hate the fact that without assist i can not do it. Its not the same basis of options. And you all forget that is just from a bit testing with 2 characters - im 100% sure there are more Option Selects (outside of combos too) that are not possible without it.
I can do everything with assist that one without can do.
I can not do everything without assist that one with can do.
Thats why i dont want play vs those that use (even if its ultradavid).
Actually i dont care if i lose (for the record - i have been playing characters i barely know lately - just get the missin achievements ending up losing the most matches). Its not about winning in my case - its about the same basis and not being forced if i want the same options. Thats actually one reason why i dont fully like a pc release - just throwing macros in there.
I dont care if players want to use it - i just want to play people without it. I respect if you like the mode and i know why they implemented it - why can not be respected from MS/IG that there are players that dont like it and these should have the option to avoid it. I paid for two ultra editions, bought the disc version and Shadow Jago - im just as a supporter as all of you and a option is too much?
I know im not the only one. If i dont get a option than i just play only private matches (aside from getting those ranked achievemnts - some are still missing) with people i know dont use it. If thats what MS/IG wanted to achieve than fine - SFV is around the corner. If capcom does something similar with SFV than maybe its time for me to quit playing fight games cause i simply dont want to use assist modes to get access to more options.
Oh i forgot something in between would be disabeling opener and ender in assist mode in general. That would not give me more options and still assist me in doing the actual combo.
because i like KI in general.
And i loved S1 (though imo it had a lot flaws that needed fixing)
I like S2 (though imo it has even more flaws that need fixing)
Maybe you are right and quitting KI with S3 is a good opportunity and time.
And how is it dividing the community - if i implement a option to avoid in lobby mode or exhibition the most played mode stays untouched. You would not even notice it.
I understand, but do you think it is worth splitting the player base over? Right now we have a unified player base (and it will continue with the PC release, thankfully). If you introduce an option in matchmaking for this, you will isolate some players from each other… probably some people who don’t even know the mode is on, or what it’s doing for them.
I don’t think IG is against giving you options, but they’re against splitting the player base. Do you think it’s worth the cost?
The ultimate thing is whether you are having fun. If you are not having fun, for whatever reason, then it’s time to take a break. As much as I’d like to convince you it shouldn’t impact your enjoyment of the game, it’s not up to me or anyone else to tell you what is, or isn’t, a dealbreaker for you having fun.
Yeah I said I would stop replying to stuff like 100 posts ago too.
i acknowledged in ranked its a bad idea. But exhibition and lobby mode would not even get noticed. It would not split the player base in fact people like me has a option to avoid.
Just a filter - that already exists in Lobby or exihibtion - throwing in rank filter. Does it split the community too? Cause if i set filter to killer all that never touched ranked or are below killer rank are out of my matchmaking. Filtering is already there. Just add cam option on or off or all to exihibition and lobby and im fine.
The problem with adding a filter is that it creates this feeling that there is a big enough difference between the two to warrant adding a filter. People start thinking “Am I doing something wrong?” “Is using that mode better?” “I don’t want to fight these people then!” You seem to think that there is a big enough advantage to warrant that but most of us don’t. If a cyclist shows up to a bicycle race with training wheels on his bike does he have an advantage? Yes because he doesn’t have to worry about balance. Are the other cyclist going to complain? No because the advantage is so tiny and irrelevant that it might as well not even exist.
And if any really noteworthy advantages do pop up IG will obviously fix them.
I agree with you @DeathBlooms2K8 if People who are new to the game are using combo assist mode, then they may not be as familier with a number of the games mechanics.
The assist mode is meant to serve as training wheels and even then it’s options are limited based on what you can do in the game. Performing certain enders like Jago’s Hard Endokuken for example; can provide one player with a better advantae than his opponent Jago who never uses it at all.
At the end of the day the players who know how to perform the moves in a combo will always come out on top.
Plus there is still the fundamental knowledge of everything else like; Combo Breakers, Counter-Breakers, etc. etc.
If people are TRUELY as skilled as they claim to be, this shouldn’t scare them.
EDIT: WOW! we’re already throwing around terms like “CAM Players” I have a feeling this will be a VERY popular label as a way to insult people. I can really see that happening.
I should also mention that in turn; a person with training wheels may not be able to turn as sharply as the person without. There’s a reason why some bicyclists can make those super sharp crazy turns at the olympics. Which means if players want to really get good at the game, they’ll have to be willing to work at it and open up the array of moves with the motions included.
To me it sounds like they can let people who are uncomfy with the game’s inputs to enjoy the game but at the cost of not being able to have as much access to the exact whole thing as the players who are willing to learn it.
In time, I’m sure this will become very clear on where the difference is between players who use C/A/M and those who do not.
If those who are using C/A/M want to learn the game without the assistance can improve after that, because the inputs in KI in my opinion are all very simple compared to alot of other fighting games. QCF motions may take a tiny bit of practice but once masterd can go a long away.
So to those supposedly freightend, terrified, worried, stricken with doubt, and a whole hoard of negative motions. Feel free to stick your chest out and let that cape flow in the wind, because at the end of the day if you’re really a skilled person and not just someone who just wants easy wins; you’ll be able to conquer other folks still learning the game.
I think that is the thing he is missing. When i have played some really really good Jago’s, like top 32 level or close to it. They were not dropping manuals. It was actually a sign of “hey this dude is REALLY REALLY GOOD”, because their entire combo was pretty much all manuals even after lock out. But what was even harder against these guys was the pressure, the frame traps. If you pressed a button, you were getting opened up, if you tried to block it all, you were getting opened up with either Back HP, cr. MK or throw. There was really nothing you could do to stop them from starting that combo. THAT’S what made them so good, not the fact that they weren’t dropping the combo.
Also if they look at the button config, it tells them which button is which. Most will usually check that prior to playing if they don’t know what the button schematics are.
I know where they’re heading to and the reason of not segregating the combo assist anywhere.
Considering some actual “pro player” of fighting games (Justin Wong) didn’t spend good words on KI by calling it a “guess breaking game”, IG is going to create a new type of fighting game. I mean, instead of adapting KI to the usual standard of the other titles, the devs are going to create a new type of fighting game, different from the mass. In this case, under this point of view, they have all my respect.
They aren’t doing it because they’re afraid of Street Fighter V as somebody said, but to distinguish themselves from the Capcom’s title.
It’s like League of Legends and Dota 2: both are MOBA, but each one has its own characteristics that make them both unique. League of Legends is easier and focused on skill spam, while Dota is harder and requires more strategy in picking and on battle plans. Well, KI stays at LOL as SFV stays at Dota 2.
But the innovation IG wants to bring to their game is something that goes beyond the game itself. The plan is, like Valve did, to build a brand new group of pro competitors, not considering the existent ones. So no wonders people that came out of nowhere are going to get the fame and the glory. KI would be competitive, but in another way than the other fighting gamers mean.
In few words, like I suggested months ago, IG is finally focusing on brand new people and took the risk of extending their target: not anymore the niche genre, but also the others that never picked up a fighting game. The whole world is their target now!
However, this combo assist feature needs some restrictions in order to avoid of becoming an abused tool. Moreover, IG needs to do further progresses and implement new game modes/choices that would continue this project.
Ah, and btw…Merry Christmas!
I understand guys who use the combo assist wont matter against good players. What about guys who are bad vs guys who are bad? Assume I’ve never played KI before, and I went through dojo mode. Now I’m cloned by (insert magic here) and now I face myself without Combo assist on, while he has it on…Is there any advantage/disadvantage?
You’re both scrubs who have a lot to learn about the game. Who has the advantage is completely moot as you are not creating a tournament of n00bs, simply exploring the game from either side.
Note, scrub meant as a new player with minimal knowledge of a game, regardless of experience with any/all games.
Let’s look at the question you’ve proposed;
“How will two scrubs competitively face off against each other when neither has competitive knowledge of the game?”
They know the Dojo moves, they don’t know the top 100 Jago moves.
… If one button mashes, depending on the character, the may succeed in winning. If the other mashes buttons, no matter the character, they may succeed in winning.
Neither have the experience to know what was going, only that they can analyze the results and adjust their meta-game from there.
As we learn the timing of our moves, we’re all button mashers. It’s why Auto-Doubles are there for those that don’t care to worry about Manuals.
Like Auto-Doubles, you can eventually learn to Manual whenever possible, thereby never using the AD’s that are “easily broken,” you can similarly learn to not use Assist-Linker or exploit the Combo-Counter Breaker system and succeed on the mechanics of the game.
But that’s a long process post scrub playing.
My son is 5, he is pretty good for his age but cant hang with any of us obviously. He tried CA yesterday with Shadow Jago and he about beat me and I was trying…hard… I couldn’t keep up with where Shago was at and it was happening fast!
CA is an advantage…I dont care what anyone says!
In that regard its great for new players…but if an advanced player learns to utilize it to his advantage… they will be that much more deadly. Mark my words…its going to happen!
Think you missed the point. I set up a scenario where both players are equal (lets not argue what equal means, just assume their general knowledge and experience is the same). Now Combo Assist is there to dampen the entry barrier a bit, no? With that in mind, will there be no advantage when my Combo Assisted Self is facing off against me without its usage?
Its a simple Yes or No question where I’l arrive at a fair conclusion afterwords. A better example could be used, but yeah.
I wounder if there could have been a better way of Putting it in the game, hell for the most part most unskilled players Are Just going to spam jump in attacks and get DPed.
I’m kinda hoping if anything assist cuts down on that by 55%.
Is that because with Shago, he was using the moves where he teleported (I know it’s not a true teleport) all over the place and kept hitting you?
I also know too that when fighting against Shago, it’s a bit challenging because he’s so new, I still haven’t found the holes in that character and since he is all over the place, players with very little skill can take advantage of that.
Though the thing with Shago, nearly all his specials are not safe, so if you block any of them, he can be punished.
The answer to this situation will be yes. There will be an advantage since both players are of equal skill level, even if they are both familiar with QC motions. The advantage will be that the player using the CA won’t have to worry so much about the timing to input QC motions or B-F motions in between the AD.
Now if both players are used to fighting games and have played a KI in the past, especially KI2, then they might pick it up quick and that advantage will be gone fairly soon.
The point though isn’t that one is gaining an advantage, it’s that they are having fun and watching these combo’s come out with ease. With the lack of understanding, they will probably blow out the combo time after time.
I know this because while I was stationed on a ship, I brought KI to play with my friends in my berthing, and that’s exactly what happened. Guys picked Wulf because they could “button mash” with his trait and he blew out combo’s all the time. I couldn’t play with them as much because there was such a skill gap unless I used characters I was terrible with like glacias. But the more important thing was everyone was having a good time. I had more fun watching them enjoy the game than I did playing with them.
I don’t think so. I think max said it best (and I didn’t know I did this until I heard him) that when you don’t know what your doing, then you will jump in a lot. So if someone as good as Max does it, then I think everyone (including myself) when learning a new character will do the same.
You set up a scenario that is contradictory in dissection, without a simple yes or no.
How will two equally, barely knowledgeable players competitively face each other?
It’s an organic journey they’ve started and it cannot be ignored everything they’re doing is more about learning the game than it is them expressing themselves through it.
And to boot, they have to penetrate a guard to open into combo, but can then be broken out of combo. What if one or both just zone? What if just anti-air DP’s are used? What if both break on the first attempt every time?
There is no simple yes or no.
then to me the point of combo assist is flawed, IF it’s to help new comers feel welcomed in the game it does that well, But If it’s going to be used as a way to just give new comers a fast leg up then it can under mind the Meta game of KI.
Hell I know fighting games are hard, but the only reason the they are hard is because unlike most other games these days they stayed the same to their roots. (I.E six attack buttons, inputs ect) even games like U MvC 3 ( or as i like to call it hyper broken combos for days edition Soul fist, Soul fist, Soul fist, Soul fist Cross over the game don’t block Mode )
Making the controls simple doesn’t change much but can just make the newer players go “I’ll stick with this” but as soon as that doesn’t work (or stops working) they can become Discouraged and want to leave after falling back to Jump ins.
Also on the note of Jump ins, Dear god I hate them, hell Riptor’s HK jump in is… no **** her tail.
It’s not flawed. Because jump ins are just only one way to get in on an opponent, and this has nothing to do with the combo other than being an opener. Combo assist is not going to do empty jump into cr. LK. That’s something they would need to learn themselves. How this will help is that after they land a jump attack and the AD hits, then a linker would occur where with out it, they might not have the speed or knowledge to know they need to input that QC/B-F motion to get the linker.
I have to disagree with this. Fighting games are hard not because they “stuck to their roots”, it’s because they are a completely different game all together. Smash Bros is probably the easiest as far as attacks go. But although an easy game to pick up, there are players that are just Good. And a lot of it comes from many of the same fighting game techniques that you need to pick up.
Even a game like SFIV is not one that if you are good at that, you’ll dominate in KI. Case in point one of my friends is really good at USFIV, when we play, he wins 90% of the time, when we switch over to KI, I win 90% of the time. And USFIV is the closet game to KI. So one fighting game doesn’t translate over to all.
I agree 100% with you here. Riptor in the air = No fun.
then they should have done another type of game. if their objective is to turn ki into smash, they are doing it perfectly.
its hilarious though that smash has an higher excution requirement than ki. KI really is headed into a bad direction if this is their focus.