So… I don’t even play Omen… like, at all… but I’ve been fighting against him recently and just find his “dud” rashakuken to be pointless.
It serves no purpose other than to give Omen a 1/13 chance of doing jack ■■■■ on an input. It’s not for balance. It doesn’t add to his gameplay. It was a cute idea, but ultimately, it just serves to make a move worse for the sake of a gimmicky, cheap laugh.
I get the concept of luck, but there should always be some function to attacks in fighting games. Some patterns can be more useful in certain situations, but they should all have some use. Having a small chance just to fail completely is dumb.
I love Omen. I like the chaotic nature of his projectile. I hate the useless one.
If I’m close enough for it to hit somebody, I probably won’t be throwing fireballs.
As an Omen Player, i will say that close range fireballs are very important. The “dud” is just fine at close range, so its only downside is in long range zoning, and at long range MOST of the projectiles are pretty useless.
Close range fireballs are only advantageous if they have special properties, like fast start up, short recovery, slow travel time or a long active duration. Without any of these, there is absolutely no benefit to being close ranged and no function that any of Omen’s other fireballs which spawn at the same height can’t serve just as well.
I’m fairly certain that Omen’s start-up and recovery are the same, regardless of what projectile is shot. The “dud” rashakuken has no properties that make it advantageous in any scenario over another pattern other than spawning at mid-height, which I’m pretty sure 90% of them do, anyway.
And Omen’s projectiles have plenty of use in zoning.
i really dont think omen is a zoner but more of a projectile pressure"er", like spinal with his skull game mix up, omen can send a barrage of fireballs and close in on the opponent, as an omen player myself, just 1 dud wouldnt really bother me considering his heavy can throw 3 ( and 4 on instinct)
I like the dud. Adds that extra bit of special-ness to Omen’s unpredictable nature. I mean, At point blank it still hits, so it has little negative effect on his pressure game. Besides, unless you’re only using light fireball or you somehow get all duds in a burst (it’s happened) you still have more fireballs on the field.
As an added note, it can lead to bonuses. Say, you condition your foe to think you’ll be using lots of fireballs, then shoot out a single Rashakuken to bait out a projectile invincible shadow move. Since you’ll have already recovered or are too far away for them to actually hit, you can punish.
I actually have a problem with two fireballs.
First is obviously Dud. Now someone can say it’s an unique fireball and it still hits when you are close to the opponent but here’s the truth: Any other will still hit the opponent when close and even from a small range we already have the crawler, that has the same premise (hitting low) but doesn’t pointlessly disappear on the ground.
Second, the Boomerang. Now, I can see some people saying that it’s useful when an opponent teleports and appears behind you but 1) how many times it will work as intended? and 2) if they are random, how can you possibly chose to have such strategy anyway?
All other projectiles are extremely useful. The unpredictable nature is an advantage but only if you can use the projectile as pressure and assault. And for that a projectile should go forward. Always.
My opinion: get rid of Dud and Boomerang.
I agree the dud is useless, but instead of getting rid of it…I think the best option would be make it were it doesn’t come out as often as it currently does. (That’s if Keits refuses to take it out completely)
In my experience the dud will come out multiple times in a row…that’s were its definitely not cool. Being its supposed to be random, but its not random, its more consistent sometimes than say “the bullet”.
@TheKeits Hey Keits, could you shed some light on this and maybe make @AugustAPC feel a little better as to why the dud exists and how we can maybe make it useful instead of loathing it so much lol?
The Dud is great upclose, just like the rest of Omen’s fireballs.
The Dud exists so that during Omen zoning, he has a 1 in 11 chance of tossing out something pretty bad. It throws a wrench into the idea that you can get consistent zoning out of a “random objects” character.
And no, it wont be changing.
Of course you don’t like it. Its an Omen weakness. Most players don’t like their character’s weaknesses. But they are there for a reason.
I when Omen was first released and i got the Dud 4 times in a row using the heavy fireball. It was funny but enough to make me say WTF . . . no forget this character lol.
Ill never forget it because i was playing against a Jago player and after the third time he taunted and jagos taunt where he shakes his head in disappointment went so well i was laughing so hard.
Hey Keits listen to some bad luck i had when when Omen was first released and i got the Dud 4 times in a row using the heavy fireball.
Ill never forget it because I was playing against a Jago player on ranked and after the third time he taunted and jagos taunt where he shakes his head in disappointment went so well i was laughing so hard. i wish i recorded that moment but i was laughing too hard lol.
Again, I don’t play Omen. My problem is not that it is a weakness, but that it is a poor design choice. Omen’s zoning is already inconsistent, regardless of the “dud”. That’s what random means.
I love your character designs, Keits, but I’m objective. The dud is just like tripping in brawl… or if Ryu had a 1/1000 chance for his fireball to fail. It’s just not appropriate for fighting games.
I also find it disheartening to see you so quick to shutdown ideas. I expected you to be more open to reason and discussion.
@AugustAPC, the point here about Omen’s zoning… its that he is no zoner
His rashakukens allows him to control dinamically the screen, but he has great footises, good walkspeed, great preassure game(maybe top 3 among the cast in the corner), and amazing mix ups.
Rashakukens are more suited for frame traps and allow safer approachs via air dash or demon slide, not to actually stop any character of getting in or win a fireball war. Can be both achieved? Yes, but situationally. You can’t rely in the rashakukens for fireball wars cause some of them won’t help at all, and you can’t keep a rushdown character far away for to long due the same motive.
Dud fireball it’s there as a chance of hit when shooted at point blank, but to discourage long distance zoning
Omen it’s one of my favorite characters, and I really like the uniqueness of his random fireballs, including some “blank shots” like Dud
I would think so - since Omen is not a zoning character.
Think about it, what else about his move set, besides his rashakukens, is really geared towards zoning? The damage if all three were to hit isn’t even that good and considering you have to wait until each has dissipated before you can do the move again (barring shadow) it doesn’t even make zoning particularly sustainable in the long run.
No, his projectiles are mainly for the purpose of helping him to get in to deal real damage, opening up his opponents, building meter on block and making certain attacks safe.
He bothered to respond, much less, read your posts. So there’s that.
No, it isn’t. I thought we were being objective here.
It would be like tripping in brawl… if tripping was attack based and not movement based, and it doubled as a close range attack consistently and was coupled with up to two more attack attemps.
If would be like Ryu having a chance for his fireball to fail… if he also threw two more fireballs at high speed back to back with it.
Your reply, especially this part, encourages me to NOT reply in the future.
People want an explanation, its given, and then someone pops up with “i expected better”. Okaaaaaaaay.
Well, that’s probability isn’t it? If we suppose Ryu could throw 3 fireballs at the same time and they had, like August said 1/1000 chance of failing, it is, mathematically possible for him to fail three times. Very hard? Yes, but possible. In this case his move would be totally wasted. There’s nothing that assures you that if he fails on 1 trial then he will not fail in the other 2 trials, otherwise it wouldn’t be probability anymore, just a bunch of ifs ifs ifs.
What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think there is, as far as I’m concerned, at the moment, a mechanic that prevents Omen from throwing 3 Duds. Or 2 duds and one boomerang what would be more or less the same thing. We’ve seen this last situation happen. Now if throwing one “pointless” fireball would prevent him from throwing other 2 pointless fireballs, that wouldn’t be so bad, but it is not 1/11 probability anymore.
Of course I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind. Just a statement.
There has to be useless options when it comes to randomness. If all of the options were good then it takes away from the fun of the random. Its like playing metronome battles in pokemon, the whole fun of it all stems from the fact that useless moves will come out. What I think is needed for omen isn’t to remove the dud, but to add another fireball that’s really really good but with really low odds of it ever coming out. Maybe an unlockable fireball or a fireball that’s multihitting, but make it so that it has to come out and charge for a bit so that omens can’t randomly get an unlockable blockstring.
