Get rid of the "dud" rashakuken

I don’t understand what your point is. I never said his inconsistent zoning is a bad thing or inappropriate. I’m not calling Omen a zoner. I’m being told that Omen’s dud is there to make his zoning inconsistent. I’m pointing out that it already is, even without the dud. Just because his zoning is inconsistent, doesn’t mean that it’s without merit, though.

I’m speaking metaphorically, not literally. It’s like tripping in brawl because it’s a player attempting to do something advantageous and being punished and left open for it entirely based on luck.

Again, I said it’s like a 1/1000 chance of Ryu’s fireball failing because Omen can throw the same fireballs in a single volley. Unless I’m mistaken, and if other posters are to be believed, it is possible for Omen to throw 3 or 4 duds in a row, rendering him nearly defenseless for a large amount of time in which the player expected to generate an attack.

That’s your prerogative.

It’s not your explanation that disappoints me, it’s the fact that you stated, “this is not going to change”. That essentially means you’re closing yourself off to potential new perspective on your character designs. I can speak from experience when I say that’s not the healthiest attitude to take for a designer.

[quote=“SithLordEDP, post:19, topic:4756, full:true”]
There has to be useless options when it comes to randomness. If all of the options were good then it takes away from the fun of the random. Its like playing metronome battles in pokemon, the whole fun of it all stems from the fact that useless moves will come out. What I think is needed for omen isn’t to remove the dud, but to add another fireball that’s really really good but with really low odds of it ever coming out. Maybe an unlockable fireball or a fireball that’s multihitting, but make it so that it has to come out and charge for a bit so that omens can’t randomly get an unlockable blockstring.[/quote]

There’s a couple glaring flaws in this argument. First, an option doesn’t have to be useless for it to not be “good”. Good is relative. There can be fireballs that are weaker than others or more situational. Second, metronome is never used in competitive battling for Pokemon. It’s not practical. If we used that comparison, then we’d be saying players should avoid using Rashakuken in any competitive situation.

If the 3 duds fail,you can just throw 3 more. If they are close enough,they will hit. If you are far enough,you can throw more. Ifnthey can shadow through it,you shouldn’t have thrown any in the first place.

Yea… fighting games are nowhere near this black and white. Nowhere.

Basically what I am saying is if you get 3 duds,which is really rare anyway,you can just throw more. If you are close,it won’t matter.

Unless you are blown up because of the huge disadvantage it leaves you at. I mean, that’s essentially like saying if you whif a shoryuken, you can just throw another out.

Except that if you are upclose,it will still hit. If you are far away,you can do more. If you do a DP up close and miss,you will get punished. At full screen,you will not get punished if you get 3 duds.

  1. There are plenty of characters who can punish full-screen and probably more can close the difference and punish during the vulnerability of a triple dud.
  2. There’s an enormous amount of space between full-screen and within the range of a dud that are unsafe that would otherwise be made safer by other rashakuken patterns.

No it doesn’t. It means, directly, “this is not going to change”.

Objectivity isn’t strong here.


@TheKeits just of curiosity I understand if you don’t reply since its off topic from omens dud but will omen get new accessories/colors in the future?

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“This is not going to change”… regardless of any new potential insight or perspective.

At this juncture, Keits, I’m comfortable just saying I expected more.

The problem here is the frequency of the mentioned tirple dud

First of all, rashakuken it’s suited for covering offensive approachs for Omen. Both Omen and his opponent know it’s fireball are random. Both should know from where a H rashakuken it’s punishable.

For example, it’s a terrible idea throw a H rashakuken against some characters when they have meter(Jago, Orchid, Spinal, Aganos, Aria…) and you are in their reach.

What @Sasuke99I tries to state here is that you shouldn’t be throwing rashakukens against a running Wulf or a jumping Sadira. You should throw a rashakuken when you know that even a triple dud whouldn’t be punishable. You have other options if you have doubts(shadow rashakuken, L rashakuken, approach by foot…)

Thats the reason of the random rashakuken. There has to be a risk factor, there has to be a chance of a triple dud, otherwise, it whould be much stronger. It whould be a real zoning tool, which insn’t.

If a character can punish a triple dud fullscreen, surelly they can punish a triple “non dud” rashakukens. Again, is a matter of oportunity.

Omen shouldn’t be able to throw a H rashakuken full screen without assuming a risk. And even in this scenario, you have A LOT of chances to not get a bad rashakuken pattern.

It’s part of the character’s magic. All other characters have tools that you can expect and react, but Omen always have some part of randomness more difficult to adapt. Even for his user!


I was just about toe xplain it until you dod. Good job.

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@AugustAPC, it’s not that @TheKeits it’s beeing immovable in his thoughts about Omen’s Rashakukens. When he says that his rashakukens are not going to change, he means that, by design, Omen has a weakness to compesate his multiple strong points. Revisiting this weakness surelly means tuning down this strong points, and IG(and me, and many other Omen users) it’s happy with the current state of the character

Dont’ take it as “talk, I don’t listen”, which it’s not the intention.

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While you are technically correct that there is a good bit of screen that would be unsafe, even heavy rashakuken doesn’t have extremely long recovery, so most characters could not react with a punish as they would have to do so after seeing the three duds come out (in the 1/1331 chance that this happens - or 1/14641 for four duds in instinct). They can’t just see you throwing fireballs and expect nothing but duds and throw out a full screen special as they will likely just run into a fireball. If they happen to just throw one out and you get nothing but duds and they manage to avoid getting hit by all three/four and still hit you in time to punish, then I guess there’s nothing else to do but shrug and say you got comprehensively outrandomed.


Sorry about dragging you into that…I didnt think it would go down like that. My bad!

Your argument consists of little more than this idea that moves which can randomly fail in some way are “not appropriate for fighting games,” a noble-sounding principle which you clearly just pulled from you butt, and which clearly Keits doesn’t share. What else did you expect? A deep reason for why said principle is mistaken? It’s mistaken by default. The best Keits could do is offer his own rationale and be done with it.


For the third time, it wasn’t his rationale that bothered me, it was his closed stance toward the discussion of the idea.

Also, pulled from my butt? Please. The idea that fighting games should be as skill contingent as possible and not hinging on RNG is hardly a farfetched concept.

I’m done here. I’ve said my peace. I’m tired of correcting people.

I like the random aspect. Keeps me on edge. Makes me react quicker as well! :smiley:

This is the problem. You think that we are clearly wrong in our statements, but you are 100% right without doubts

A:I think Jago should heal with each attack, not only endokukens, and he should kill you with one hit
B:That’s unfair and it’s never going to happen
A:Never? I’m dissapointed with you because you don’t want to discuss it

There are some points open to discussion, but the concept of Omen it’s what it is. You can change frame data, give new movement options, new attacks, more or less damage output… but Omen it’s a heavy mix-up character with random fireballs which are best used as preassure tool instead zoning, and for making this more clear the rashakukens can’t be controlled and some of them have less uses when not used in short range

Rashakuken must have the chance of fail. And have GREAT fails. Surely this is one of the most pivotal parts of his design.

And for the record, there are more characters in other fighting games that use “random stuff” and works for them(Taokaka, Faust, Phoenix Wrigth…)


Explanation accepted and thank you for replying. It’s really refreshing to have your logic explained, even if opinions differ.

Out of curiosity, is the likelihood of throwing the dud reduced if Omen only throws one fireball?