Great post, you sure took him to school! haha wooooo
Iâm telling you guys, eagle is kelvin aka rushdown glacius. Thatâs what Iâm guessing at least lol.
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Thatâs exactly what Iâm thinking, if not, I still want rushdown glacious lol
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Wasnât trying to take anyone to school, just an attempt to backup my previous post. I donât want anyone thinking Iâm okay with negative stereotypes because Iâm not, I appreciate when things are sensitive to different groups of people whether they be races, genders, religions, what have you but I start to get concerned when situations arise that cause people to be overly cautious so they donât offend anyone.
Iâm not saying thatâs whats going on with KI at all but I honestly canât see the racially insensitive factors in Thunderâs classic outfit. Again, some of his voice lines were mildly offensive in the old game but that wouldnât carry over into this game. The only things remotely Native American about his original look was some ornamental feathers on his head and his weapons of choice. The rest was a quasi-Borderlands Bandit looking guy with camo pants, a huge belt buckle and a little paint on his eyes. I totally love Thunderâs modern look and Iâm glad that they went the extra mile to make sure he was authentic as possible, it really shows as one of the best designs of season one.
Anywho, I donât really want to derail the thread any further with talk of whatâs morally right and wrong with the world and everything, I just know that Thunderâs retro could have been a lot better.
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Youâre absolutely right and I agree with you too.
I think if Eagle does become playable (which is likely) we can expect him to be a mix of both Thunder and Fulgore I can totally see that happening in a way.
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Iâll only respond with this, as I donât want to derail the thread and youâre more than entitled to your opinion, but I just wanted to point a few things out.
His old costume was a Native American stereotype by simple virtue of the fact that it wasnât historically accurate. They took a dude, slapped some paint and feathers on him and gave him some gibberish war cries. Thatâs stereotyping.
Yes, and thatâs fine, but thatâs an awfully small sample size to draw a conclusion from, and is it at least possible that there might be some confirmation bias in there? Either way, some not being offended by something doesnât automatically make that something not offensive to others or simply not offensive in general.
Youâre talking a historically accurate depiction, as consulted by actual historians, versus what your niece and nephew, who are children, have to say on the subject? Weâre talking facts versus emotion. Sorry, but facts win every time. At least they should.
Not really, and this is important, because I donât really get the premise here that the only reason why they did this was to not offend people. Couldnât they just prefer to do something accurately without having the PC police force them in to doing it that way? Why is that not an option for them? Why do you immediately jump to PC police made them do it or they only did this to avoid offending people?
Iâm pretty sure Adamâs said on multiple occasions that they simply didnât like how the old Thunder looked and sounded and they wanted to do something more accurate this time around and that should be their choice as developers.
Iâm not trying to jump on you here, man. I enjoy reading your posts. I just think you might be making assumptions on how all of this played out and maybe, possibly relying on a small sample size to reinforce your own, pre-existing opinion.
I mean⊠Do you think the Washington NFL football teamâs name is offensive? A lot of Native Americans donât. Does that mean itâs not offensive? Well, the teamâs been sued several times by tribes going all the way back to the 1950s and the fact of the matter is that the word is a historical racial pejorative. The only argument Dan Snyder, the teamâs owner seems to have against it is history, as in âitâs been that way decades, we have a rich history and shouldnât change it.â
Thunder looked that way before, so even if it might or might not offend others, even if it is a collection of stereotypes, are you saying MS/IG should just ignore that just because of history?
[quote=âIago407, post:27, topic:12863, full:trueâ]His old costume was a Native American stereotype by simple virtue of the fact that it wasnât historically accurate. They took a dude, slapped some paint and feathers on him and gave him some gibberish war cries. Thatâs stereotyping. [/quote]Stereotype or not, was it offensive? Is Mcree in Overwatch a negative stereotype because heâs a gun-slinging cowboy with a metallic cyborg arm? I mean heâs not historically accurate, so that should mean theyâre perpetuating a stereotype right?
[quote=âIago407, post:27, topic:12863, full:trueâ]
Youâre talking a historically accurate depiction, as consulted by actual historians, versus what your niece and nephew, who are children, have to say on the subject? Weâre talking facts versus emotion. Sorry, but facts win every time. At least they should.[/quote]My sisterâs half of the family is steeped in tradition, their house is filled with Native American artifacts, they are active with their tribe and thereâs even a homemade totem poll next door at Grandmaâs house that the family carved together. Theyâve even got a set of headdresses that they take to ceremonies on occasion. These kids know whatâs up, as far as my familyâs reaction to Thunder some of them seemed to think that Thunderâs modern look was more of a stereotype than the mad-max original design. A guy with tomahawks and a bear on his head is a more stereotypical native american than a surgically implanted feather mohawk. 
Iâm just looking at things from my own perspective like you said and yeah it seems like the new KI has gone a little out of its way to make sure its not offensive. (not that its a bad thing) The game is rated T instead of M, the âsex appealâ has been completely whitewashed what with the refusal of things like Orchidâs costume as well as Kimâs. The Thunder issue weâve been discussing. At times I look at the game and I wonder why its been toned back, the originals werenât super gory but they had some graphic finishes, they had instances of Orchid flashing her top to kill someone, the female characters were âsexyâ for what they were. They had people being shot, impaled (now due to ratings we couldnât even have Hisakoâs blade pass through a torso), burned alive, it was a somewhat brutal experience on top of the lighthearted comedy act. The game has been toned down significantly in some regards.
I think get why theyâve done what theyâve done and I really donât want to sound like some proponent of sleaze and stereotyping, because Iâm not I just donât really like censoring for the sake of it. I love Killer Instinct, I love Chief Thunder, I love Orchid, I love everything about the game. I just want it to be all it can be and I donât want anyone to have to give second thoughts to design choices to uphold and maintain the non-offensive package. In this day and age people are offended by everything, I guess I just kinda get tired of hearing about it. 
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To get back on topic, I really do think that Eagle would make a good âshagoâ style character though. Like the reworked characters they put in the character poll. Some things like Fulgoreâs lasers would obviously have to go as would the teleport but I think his projectile could stay, turn it into an Eagle of some sort. I think the lunging dash could stay too, I mean Jago flies across the screen to kick you Iâm sure Eagle could float/fly using the power of wind or something to connect with those moves. He could keep the uppercut too, really he could play more like classic Fulgore if you think about it.
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LOL, I should never say that Iâll only comment on things once. 
Iâll leave this here, but how about if we want to continue the conversation, we take it to PM? If not, no problem, we can just let it go here.
You donât think thereâs a difference between an ethnic stereotype and a historical stereotype? Really?[quote=âxCrimsonLegendx, post:28, topic:12863â]
My sisterâs half of the family is steeped in tradition, their house is filled with Native American artifacts, they are active with their tribe and thereâs even a homemade totem poll next door at Grandmaâs house that the family carved together. Theyâve even got a set of headdresses that they take to ceremonies on occasion. These kids know whatâs up, as far as my familyâs reaction to Thunder some of them seemed to think that Thunderâs modern look was more of a stereotype than the mad-max original design. A guy with tomahawks and a bear on his head is a more stereotypical native american than a surgically implanted feather mohawk.
[/quote]
Again though⊠Thatâs still an incredibly small sample size. Iâm sure your familyâs awesome, no doubt, but theyâre not the end-all / be-all on deciding whatâs offensive and whatâs not to entire race of people, regardless of how steeped in their own culture they happen to be. Thatâs why I brought up the Washington NFL team. Some native americans arenât the least bit offended by the name, while others are.
Gone out of itâs way or just made some conscious choices? I donât think they have to do backflips to make characters not be stereotypes ore sex objects. If itâs between this and the ludicrous floatation devices and objectification in Street Fighter V, then I think MS / IG made the right decision. But really, thatâs just me.
I still think Orchid looks attractive. Same goes for Sadira and Kim Wu for that matter. Theyâre still showing some skin, just as the guys are, but they also look stylish and you can tell that was the priority. They donât have to have giant breasts popping out of their shirts, bouncing all over the screen to be âsexy.â Man, itâs 2016, canât we stretch the definition of that word a little bit?
Honestly, I donât think Orchid, Kim Wu or Maya for that matter were dressed overly provocative back in the day, except for maybe Orchidâs butt floss, so Iâm not sure where youâre getting that the sex appeal was white-washed. They opted to not go with the butt floss and honestly, is that a big deal?
I donât get why this is censorship though if theyâre making the conscious effort to go in a different direction. Theyâre not being forced. If they want Thunder to look more traditional in terms of a real life tribe that they actually consulted with, why is that censorship? If they decide that they want the women in the game to not look like the blow-up dolls that DOA or SFV have, why is that censorship?
Now if Adam came in here and said âsorry guys, we really wanted to make the chicks in this game super sexy, but the ESRB and the higher ups shut us down,â okay, then that would be censorship. But if the people making the design decisions are, themselves, deciding to go in a different direction creatively? Iâm sorry, but thatâs not censorship. Thatâs creative freedom.
Just as Iâd never assume to tell Capcom that they need to tone the women down, I donât get why people presume to impose on MS / IGâs creative choices by telling them that they need to have more T&A.
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@Iago407 @xCrimsonLegendx
I know you two have already been considering this, but please take it to PMâs. I made this thread to discuss gameplay, and specifically stated in the OP that I want to avoid any other sorts of discussion that donât directly effect it.
If youâre going to talk about ideas for the gameplay Eagle might have, please do. If you want to discuss anything else, take it somewhere else.
Now, back to gameplay.
Weâve had ideas thrown around for a Shago style character that uses the gameplay of a base character and jumps off.
Weâve had people express that theyâd want the character to have a completely unique move-set without any derivatives, which is also a valid request.
Then Adam came in and introduced the possibility that Eagle is no longer what they may seem, and the entity Glacius retrieved may be vastly different, with Vlad implying heâs ârushdown Glaciusâ from the poll.
Letâs jump off from here and keep going.
Donât worry, Iâm not going to discuss it any more here, sorry. Adamâs reply just kinda fanned the flames a little and got me going. 
I really do prefer the offshoot of Fulgore idea the most though.
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Sorry man! Wonât happen again. 
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This is exactly why I donât like this new KI as much as the original. KI3 is just missing a few things that made the original great and memorable.
Edit: Did I say something offensive?
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Iâve been doing some thinking about potential gameplans for Eagle and suddenly it hit me:
When @TempusChaoti posed the question âwhat did they find?â I began thinking of ways this could apply outside the box of what weâre thinking for characters.
Eagle being locked up in an Ultratech facility canât have been a pleasant existence. Fed through tubes and kept in stasis as his brain is warped and replicated as the AI for a killing machine, seemingly doomed to suffer at the hands of these people for the rest of my life.
His spirit would grow restless, as his body craves freedom, his tongue seeks for real food, and his faith in his fellow man degrades. Eventually, he breaks down, and goes forth with inhuman determination, seeking to fulfill his wander lust, the satisfy his hunger, to attain vengeance against those who had brought him such unbearable sufferingâŠ
Kinda like a wendigoâŠ
This could open up a ton of interesting avenues in story telling, and it would add depth to what we consider the game plan. For example, rushdown-Glacius may share a similar combat style, but not necessarily appearance (much like Sharkman TJ).
Letâs think of how âKelvinâ could fit this Wendigoâd Eagle⊠A charge akin to cold shoulder, long lanky limbs to imitate ice lance and the jump kicks, and a tool kit that befits Glacius style up-close pressure to an enhanced degree.
That sort of game plan could work well with a lanky creature amalgamated from hate and the stench of death, or a lost spirit engulfed in rage to the Nth degree.
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I made a post time ago about how could be his gameplay:
Gonna copy paste it here to mantain the discuss here
Bionic-Spiritual brawler
Arquetype: Aerial Grappler-Ground brawler
Eagle was an exceptional warrior prior being held captive by Ultratech. He excells both in wrestling and boxing. Since he was captured and Ultratech experimented with him in order to learn how to create âAriannaâ, a human vessel for Aria, they implanted mechanical augmentations and experimented with Glacius DNA on him. As a âperfect human specimenâ, unlike Cinder or Ariannaâs project clones, his body doesnât rejects Glaciusâ DNA, so he doesnât mutate into abominations. Using his warrior skills, his spirital connection to his weyekin(the Eagle), bionic augmentations, and DNA modification, Eagle is the definitive warrior.
Appareance: Eagle has bionic augmentations for some parts of his body, like his feets and hands. These are not fully replaced limbs, he has metallic parts in his knuckles for example. His stance itâs similar to Nash, from SFV. His long hair covers part of his face, similar to Hisako. He has holes in his skin, and sometimes they pour steam smoke from them. A pair of wires are hanging from his back.
Ground movement: Average-low walkspeed, good backdash(not as good, but similar to Cinderâs), long reaching but somewat slow forward dash(good for getting close against knocked down opponents, but unsafe against an already standing character), can be cancelled into jump(similar to Maya).
Jumping: He has a jumping arc similar to Jago.
Normals to watch:
Eagle punch normals have great range and are pretty safe, being his forward HP a âgrabâ. It works as a normal hit, itâs blockable, but if it connects, Eagle deals a second hit, staggering the opponent. Only does this against grounded characters. His kicks are better suited for anti airing, being HK a very angled up kick which launches, potentially leading to an air combo. His low attacks doesnât have much range.
His jumping attacks have all great hitbox and have a lot active frames, but have better hitbox for air to air situations than air to ground. Mk its his cross up attack of choice.
Regular throw: Eagle performs a spinebuster
Back throw: Performs a lariat similar to Hugoâs, then he does an elbow drop over the knocked opponent
Specials:
Imperial Drop: Command grab. Differents effects with different buttons.
-LP is his normal command grab. Similar to Thunderâ M call of the earth in terms of range and speed. Performs a power drop.
-M version its a ground to air grab, similar to Miraâs. Jumps a bit, grabs the opponent, and performs a piledriver.
-H version its also a ground to air grab, but Eagle stays grounded, grabs the opponent, slams him in the ground, and launches him again to the air. Eagle can jump for an air combo, similar to Sadira after her regular throw. Deals minor damage.
-Shadow version: enhanced L version. More range and damage, causes hard knockdown, 3 frame throw, can work as reversal, invulnerable until recovery, similar to Omenâs Demonic despair in terms of invulnerability. Itâs his better wake up option, but loses to airborne or throw invulnerable opponents, and needs meter.
Air imperial drop: Air version of the previous grab. Varies depending of the button pressed:
L-Performs a piledriver and causes knockdown. If performed following a breakable hit, cashes potential damage.
M-Recapture. Gets the opponent to the ground and can be continued with a combo.
H-Grabs the opponent and takes it to the ground. Eagle then sits over him. He can then use all his punch buttons to hit the opponent, similar to Gargos devil divide. Doesnât cash out potential damage, but each aditional hit deals good damage. If 3 are landed, causes hard knockdown, otherwise soft knockdown.
-shadow: enhanced L version. Omega ender: its his most damaging attack. Has really good range and its very hard to hit him out of it. Deals a lot of damage in a combo, but its damage its insane out of it. Similar to Kimâs dragon kick second hit without the first.
Eagleâs talon: long range special, wind kick style. Combo starter and carry linker. Wall splat ender. Hits overhead. M and H are unsafe. Jumps a long but low jump hitting with his arms.
Air Eagleâs talon: air only. L angles down-forward, m travells straight forward, H up-forward. Can be canceled into Spiritual Flight on hit or block.
Thousand needles: Eagle unleash a flurry of fast punches, similar to Dudleyâs machinegun blow. Eagle doesnât move from where he is. Very similar to Omenâs flurry kicks, but with his fists. Shadow version hits 10 times, but if one button itâs held, Eagle will delay the hit, similar to Hisakoâs combo trait. Useful to fish lockouts. Damage linker, launcher ender.
Call of the ancestors(3P): Similar to Thunderâs CoTS, Eagle infuses hiself with the power of his weyekin. This allows him to do a single 8 direction dash in the air called âSpiritual flightâ. The dash can be done after an air attack(on hit or block), and after the dash, he can do another attack/special. This allows him to do âair combosâ. He can store 2 of these, represented as wind around his body. With 2, the wind itâs bigger.
Example of a combo with 2 charges against an airborne opponent:
J.HK->Spiritual flight->J.Mp xx H Eagleâs talon->Spiritual flight->J.Mk xx Imperial Drop
Instinct: Eagle has two instincts instead of one! But he only can use one at time, depending of when he uses it.
-If he activates instinct while airborne, he is infused by his weyekin. He can perform up to 3 Spiritual flights in a row, recovering all of them once he lands. This can lead to scary and long air combos, and great mobility. This instinct itâs clearly suited for offensive approach
-If he activates instinct while grounded, his bionic augmentations gets an overcharge, and his DNA modifications with Glacius DNA appears. Glacius could control ice and water, Cinder fire, and Eagle electricity. He speeds up his walkspeed, and he gets a new attack:
Overcharge(3k): Eagle begins to generate electric waves from his body, similar to Blanka from SF series. It works as reversal, antiair, and wins against almost any normal attack. Safe on block, can be held to generate a bigger electric pulse, otherwise has poor range.
If he activates instinct while airborne, he has better offensive tools, and if he activates it grounded, he getâs better defensive tools.
Gameplan:
Eagle has great control of the air in front of him, with two command grabs leading to damage or a combo oportunity, and great air to air tools. He can deal great amounts of damage easily in these situations, and has great preassure in close quarters thanks to a fast multi hitting special, a command grab, and an overhead. In his optimal spot, staying grounded itâs a fast way to get grabbed, and jumping itâs very risky. A good use of Call of the ancestors can lead to hard to break air combos, and having two different instincts gives him more tools to face each situation.
Still, Eagle has weakness. Albeit he can control very well the space in front of him, he struggles when the rival itâs over his head. His anti airs doesnât cover that position, and his wake up options are not great. He needs meter or grounded instinct to defend himself properly, and he is somewat weak to zoning. Characters like Glacius or Kan-Ra are really hard to get in
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Just at least give Eagle a âphoenixâ projectile with 3 different variants that either works like S1 Fulgoreâs laser or Fulgoreâs regular projectile. Give him a unique meter that could work something like Fulgoreâs pip meter, but to a lesser degree⊠Lastly, give him classic Thunderâs dp move, so that it totally doesnât function as a dp, but does still have a purpose as-- a combo ender or a whiff punish moveâŠ
Those are my requests⊠I canât wait to see this guy in actionâŠ
Why was this flagged? Iâm not saying this new KI is bad, I love it. Itâs probably better than the original. I like both games to be honest.