Dealing with Agression, backed into corner, wake ups


#1

Hello all, First off I want to say this is my first fighting game since MK trilogy on N64 so it has been a while. With that being said I am picking up KI very quickly and enjoying it so far. I recently started playing ranked game and for the most part if someone is around my skill level I do well but I am running into problems with very aggressive characters and how to deal with them.

Games where they are non-stop in my face usually ends up with me in the corner getting up over and over again and getting stuck in another combo. I am not sure how to deal with this. I try combo breaking and it works from time to time but right after that they just get on me again and rinse and repeat until im dead. I try blocking as soon as I get up and throwing but that doesn’t seem to work either as they break through and again im in another combo. I am a newb when it comes to this so are there any tips or tricks and how to get out of this or combat this? I am currently playing Fulgore because… well hes cool and that’s as far as I thought it through. Not sure if he has a problem with this or every character has a problem with this in general. Thanks for the help.


#2

As always the best solution against these problems is to not get into these situation but that’s beside the point.

I’ll cover your general wake up option.
The first thing you have to know is that you’re down and you have to make a choice, most of the time you’ll have to guess, or better, read what your opponent will do.
Then you should know all of your wake up option.
In KI generaly speaking these are: block, backdash, jump, invincible move, shadow counter, instinct activation, tech throw or projectile invincible move.
Then it all comes down to what your opponent can do on your wake up but that’s mostly match up knowledge.

Now let’s see in detail what you can do as fulgore.

  • blocking
    Well you should know how this work, be patient and wait for the string to end and your turn to come.
    Mostly use block when the opponent meaty you non stop and has a not so excellent high/low mix up.

  • backdash
    all backdash in KI has total invincibility on startup, meaning that backdashing on wake up will avoid almost all meaty attempt.
    But be wary, don’t abuse backdash as a more experienced player will be able to punish you for that.
    Also in most case a cross up will catch a backdash, so when the opponent is in the air, you might prefer to just block.

  • jump
    Mostly used against grab attempt or badly timed meaty. A jump is not an ultimate counter for these situation but it can surprise your opponent from time to time.
    Use a jump wisely, it should mostly be used when you’ve conditionned your opponent or when you know perfectly what he’ll do.

  • invincible move
    AKA your dp. It beats almost everything on wake up (except block and another dp) but of course if it’s blocked, it’s free damage for the opponent. Again don’t abuse it.
    Fulgore has a big advantage in this field, as he can cancel a dp into aire shadow laser making it safe. You should condition yourself to use the shadow if the dp is blocked and to not use it if the dp hits.

  • shadow counter
    An alternative to blocking. If the opponent has a tendency to pressure you with multiple button or special, the shadow counter is the perfect answer.
    But it’s a tool harder to use than it looks i advise you to look somewhere else what it can and cannot do.

  • Instinct activation
    On wake up instinct activation is your ultimate joker. Time freezes for a short period and during this period you have enought time to see what the opponent is doing and react acordingly. Simply put, if he does something -> dp. If he does nothing, you’re back in a neutral situation, either way is a win.

  • tech throw
    If you think the opponent will throw, just doing a tech throw will get you out of these annoying situation and will leave you at a controlable range.

  • projectile invincible
    As fulgore, your shadow foward lunge (forgot the name) is projectile invincible on startup. Meaning that if your opponent uses a projectil on your wake up, you can punish it with this move, but be careful, if the opponent guard it, you’ll most likely be punished by a shadow counter.

Well that’s roughly alll of your option, now you have to learn when and how frequent can you use these options.
But here the thing, nothing restrain you from going “wild” on your wake up.
You might want to use a dumb option for a wake up but if it works then nothing wrong with it.

Anyway, if I’m wrong on things I said please correct me and if a more experienced fulgore player could certify or complement what I said that would be nice.

Also sorry for the typos if there are any.


#3

I would also point out that cancelling a dp into air shadow laser isn’t safe - if your opponent is trying to punish your dp, it’ll hit them. If they’re waiting to bait the laser, they can block it and punish it.

Also, because of the long recovery on throw whiffs, I would recommend backdashing (Fulgore has a great backdash) on wakeup rather than throw teching if you think they’ll try to throw you. This will allow you to punish with fHP and get a combo, and isn’t as vulnerable to meaty attacks (attacks which hit you at the exact same time you get up). Throw techs are still good for when your opponent walks up to throw you in the neutral and you don’t react fast enough to jump or backdash.
Opponents with multi-hitting moves will be able to both meaty you and catch you when you’re backdashing (as there is a vulnerable period after the invincibility) simultaneously, so keep that in mind - when you don’t have meter to shadow counter, your opponent will be able to abuse these on your wakeup as only your dp will outright beat them. See Jago’s fHK.

And against aggressive players, knowing the frame data on their opener specials is key. A lot of characters have openers which leave them close and slightly negative on block (you can attack before they can) - don’t let players try and keep attacking after these, make sure to put in a jab and take your turn to be on offence. Same with TJ’s heavy powerline punch. Especially if they don’t have the meter for an invincible reversal. When they start blocking your jab, you can start doing some mixups with throws and overheads.
Even if a character’s special leaves them negative but outside of jab range, you might want to often put in your fastest normal that reaches them in case they try a projectile or jumping or something.
Same with punishes - work on punishing TJ’s flying knee and tremor specials, and also on punishing Rash’s wicked tongue with jab and his wrecking ball with a dp as it leaves him airborne. For instance, Riptor’s predator stance MK (3-hitting overhead) is -3 on block, so can actually be dp punished if close enough. If you keep punishing well, you’ll do more damage, get more time on offence, and your opponent will be scared to use some of their options.

I would say Fulgore has a more difficult time on defence than some others, all down to his difficulty in gaining meter. If he doesn’t have the meter, he can’t use his projectile invincible shadow move, or shadow counter, and will miss out on some guaranteed punishes as well as have to take multi-hitting moves in their entirety. His dp and backdash are risky but vital ways to avoid pressure, so make sure you really make the most of your own offence when you get the chance to avoid having to go on the defence again.

Also, you don’t have to always be in your opponent’s face; if they’re backing you towards a wall, you can backdash then throw some fireballs and teleport away, or throw out some pokes to catch them walking forward, or dash up grab, or walk up and jump over them, or be patient and see if they jump or make a mistake.


#4

Glad you’re enjoying KI! :slight_smile:

Corner pressure can definitely be nasty in this game, but which character has you there is also really important. While every character is dangerous in the corner, certain ones have the ability to largely negate your defensive options and force you to simply hold the mixups. Is there any character in particular that’s been giving you issue?

More generally, the two skills I think you’ll probably want to develop are the magical tools of down+back and DP. Because you’re playing Fulgore shadow counter is going to be a less common option for you, and because we’re talking about the corner backdash is going to be less useful. What you’re really going to have to work on is the ability to simply sit still and down+back sometimes, and then react to the overhead or neutral jump. Trying to throw tech makes you susceptible to neutral jumps, meaties, and frame traps, so while you’ll need to learn to do it I don’t think it’s the most critical skill. Most throws will take off about 10% and put you in a hard knockdown (HKD) scenario, while getting opened up for full combo will probably earn you at least 15-20% and then whatever wall splat mixup they like. If you block, then after one or two strings their pressure will end, or otherwise give you a gap to DP through.

DP is going to be your go-to option to establish credibility on defense. Your DP is not about damage - it is about respect. Use it to lay down markers for what you will and will not allow from your opponent on offense, and then take the space that gives you to get screen position back. DP them until they begin to respect the option, and then punish them for respecting it by waking up with buttons of your own or Fulgore’s fantastic throw. It’s ok if sometimes you guess wrong and you get dunked because your opponent blocked - even whiffed DP’s make a powerful statement.

Hope that helps, and best of luck as you continue to play. I recommend posting some of your matches in the Replay and Analysis thread as well, so that we can see exactly what’s happening and how you might be able to improve. :thumbsup:


#5

As a Sadira main, back+down is pretty much ALL I can do in the corner.

Corner + Sadira = Dead Sadira

Fulgores are lucky. :stuck_out_tongue:

I would also add, if you have meter always try to Shadow Counter if you can and its safe to do so.


#6

Wow! Thank you guys for the amazing write ups. Honestly, I never knew this game was so complicated. All these tips are really helping. The only thing i’m having trouble with is doing the DP move. Right down diagonal seems really hard to do as I usually push quarter circle right by accident. Oh well, practice makes perfect. Thank you all for the info!


#7

No problem man.

DP’s Z motion is essentially forward into QCF (quarter circle forward), so if that’s what you mean (:arrow_right: :arrow_down: :arrow_lower_right: :arrow_right:+P) then you’ve got the right idea.


#8

Tbh coming back inti ki after about a month I find that neutral jump is probably one of the best wakeups to do


#9

Not if your opponent is good it’s not :sweat_smile:


#10

It can help in certain situations. I find neutral jumpers annoying,the just keep on holding up most of the time. However there are ways to take advantage of this and either punishing or stop it.


#11

Considering the Types of Characters I play I’ve simply decided to make peace with the Corner and embrace the cosy lil spot my opponent was nice enough to shove me into. :sunglasses:

I can sit there and absorb corner pressure all day and not feel particularly in such a hurry to get out. I’m still completely vulnerable to throws though so I’m working on my Throw Teching… but strike pressure is no sweat for me. Especially in SFV thanks to the colossal pushback from simple short block strings.

Unfortunately getting Chipped to death is a big issue for my aggressively passive play style… atleast thats the issue in KI.


#12

You’ve merely adopted the corner…I was born in it…molded by it…it has consumed me as one of its own.

You’ve clearly never been against me in in the corner, I’ll make your life a living hell :smiling_imp:

In all seriousness it’s good that you are able to stay calm in the corner, it can really lead to the aggressor to do unsafe things. Not many people can be defensive while in a bad spot


#13

LoL… you really had me going there. :sweat_smile:

I think most people just really want to get out of the corner ASAP because they spent so much time practicing Combos & Setups in training mode and they get antsy when they feel like they might not get an opportunity to whip them out in an actual match. Their impatience might get the better of them.


#14

I wouldn’t worry about losing too much life to chip in KI. The game has very low chip damage in general, so unless you’re just holding truly massive amounts of shadows or projectiles (or fighting Cinder I guess), then the damage you lose to chip will be quite manageable.


#15

In the beginning or middle of the Match its generally not an issue near the end when I’m in the Danger State it can be a problem especially against characters that cause your health to dwindle down to 1 Hit Point when there’s simply no more room left for Potential Damage to have any effect… General Raam’s Kryll Storm is a good example. I think Mira’s Blood Mist does this too.


#16

Believe me the most heart breaking thing is to lose a match through chip, espiecally when you have no option but to just take it…


#17

Ah, I see. Those effects aren’t really “chip” damage - your “real” life is unaffected by PD buildup, and you can never die from these effects.

Now if you get opened up with a ton of white life built up, there’s a decent chance you’re hosed. But the condition is quite distinct from being chipped to death, and isn’t something you have to worry about being applied to you while blocking except in a few edge cases (Cinder, Raam, Mira).


#18

Its those Edge Cases that really shake my confidence. I mean it rarely happens but when it does happen the impression it leaves just haunts me.

I think Ultimately Street Fighter implemented chip damage a whole lot better. For your opponent to win the round they must successfully score a nice clean hit against you. The only thing that can kill you from Chip damage is a Critical Art… and even then this doesn’t apply to Characters that have throws for Critical Arts like R.Mika & Zangief. In the case of KI I’d be willing to settle for only getting chipped out by Shadow Moves.


#19

Again, you cannot be killed by any of the edge cases we’re talking about here. Raam’s kryll storm cannot kill you, nor can Mira’s blood mist, Cinder’s burnout, nor Omen’s demonic despair (which deals 100% potential damage, i.e. turns your entire lifebar white). PD-building moves are not “chip” moves; the condition is distinct and meaningfully different.

With regards to how actual chip damage/death is handled, that will be a preference thing. My personal take is that you have 200% life to work with; if you don’t want to die to chip, then don’t lose 198% of your life for the rest of the fight. I think it’s kind of silly to change the rules of the fight (my special does X amount of chip unless you’re nearly dead, in which case it does zero chip) just because someone has mismanaged 198% of the rest of their lifebar. Especially in a game like KI, where chip damage is so low to begin with. But again, that’s just a preference thing.

EDIT: I feel like the “edge case” you’re thinking of when you mention Raam is his basic kryll effect, which is a DOT status (and therefore can put you in danger of chip kill at the end of a round). This is basically the only move of its kind in the entire game, so I don’t think it’s really worth trying to build new systems around it. Just one of those things you have to keep in mind. If it makes you feel better, Raam has no guaranteed chip kill options. You can always shadow counter him if he tries to make you block normal->special, and even shadow stab is so slow that you can shadow counter after the first hit.


#20

Doesn’t Potential Damage start turning into Actually Damage if you have no more health left to turn into Potential Damage ?