I have done theater Dojo and still don’t fully understand the frame data. I understand the concept, but that is it. When do the active frames and recovery frames come into play?
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Startup/active frames/recovery
Adv on hit/adv on block
Start up is how long it takes too start. Active frames is how long the move stays to land a hit. Recovery is how long it takes to start another move. Adv on hit is how much time you have left to do something before the opponent can do something.
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Recovery is after the move is finished, the amount of time before they can block or do another move.
SO if there are -13 recovery frames on a whiffed DP. He cant do anything until those -13 frames are up. So if you are standing there and you use a -12 Start up frames or higher, You will hit him and there is nothing he can do about it. he cant block or counter with another move.
Startup is the part of the animation before it “goes active”.
Active frames are how long it is “attacking” for (data gets weird for projectiles and some other stuff).
Recovery is the vulnerable period after the moves active frames, during which you cannot act.
Frames are a measurement of time. If you think of them in Seconds… we are both standing in front of each other. Your move is -5 on start up and mine is -22. You are going to beat me to the punch each time. If you are recovering form another move and I am not…well subtract recovery frames from your move.
A good start:
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I read that the day you posted it, but still am not sure. I guess I need examples.
Riptor’s Talon Rake
Start up. 23. 12. 21.
Active. 4. 8. 8
Avd on hit. 5. 6. 8
Avd on blk. -25. -25. -26
Eyedol. Crushing swing
Start up. 4. 7. 10
Active. 6. 5. 5
AVH. 22. 59. 25.
AVB. -21. -19. -18.
Now if I read this right then, if Riptor blocks Eyedols light swing, and tries a light talon rake it will fail. If riptor does a heavy they will tie. Correct?
According to KI startup frames, Eyedol would be able to block the light Talon Rake because it takes 22 Correction 23 frames to be active. If it were 20 startup frames, that would be a punish, not a tie.
there is no “tie” ever when you are talking about whether or not the opponent can block. But it seems like you have the right idea.
In this case, Eyedol will be able to block, but he will only have 1 frame to do it.
So you add the startup frames and the active frames, then see if it is a lower number than Avd on block?
Equal or lower, yes. You add all the startup frames and the first active frame.
Come to my stream some time, ask in chat, and I’ll explain in great detail.
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I will, thank you. Will you be streaming tonight?
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I think your explanations might unintentionally confuse the point a bit more @FallofSeraphs76 - it’s a little weird to see a move described in terms of “a move is -5 on startup.” Might not be your intention, but I’d read that as “a move is minus 5 on startup”, which isn’t a valid description, and kind of mixes up the terminology for how we describe moves on hit or block.
@SadisticRage76, I’m not sure I follow how you’ve laid out your info (looks like a grid of all the strengths of each move?), but I think it seems like you’ve more-or-less got it. A simpler example would be something like this:
*data not meant to necessarily reflect in-game values *
Jago’s jab is 4/3/4 (start-up/active/recovery)
Wulf generic special is 6/7/5, but “advantage on block” is listed as -1.
Wulf’s jab frame data is equivalent to Jago’s.
If Wulf does his generic special and Jago blocks it, and they both mash jab immediately after, then Jago’s jab will always land first and Wulf will be counter hit, because his jab will always be 1 frame too slow to become active and trade with Jago’s jab. The special’s recovery frames are immaterial for the purpose of this example, as the important data point to know is the generic special’s advantage on block (-1 in this case). If the special had 120 recovery frames but was +1 on block, then the mash jab situation would be reversed, and Wulf’s jab would always beat out Jago’s mash jab by 1 frame.
If active frames have you confused, I think thinking of things in terms of meaties is helpful. If you reversal a non-invincible special, you will lose out to any meaty button, even though specials beat normals in priority, because your special gets caught in startup frames, i.e. it doesn’t yet have an active hitbox. Once the special becomes active, it stays active for X frames (in the above generic special example, 7 frames), and would beat out any normal hitbox it might come into contact with.
Like I said, it seems like you more or less already understand things, but hopefully this provides at least a little more clarity about frame data.
So I use the start up info to see if the move will land in time? The active data is if I want to time any hit, but the first to hit? And the recovery is like a self inflicted stun, which gives the other guy a certain number of frames to work with to do a move/combo?
Yes the other post was Part graph. I did it to show where I was pulling my numbers, and to have a real problem to figure out.
You actually typically don’t really care about “recovery frames” that much (you do in some specific cases but they are rarer). What you really care about is “advantage on block”, which is a nice number that you can use to understand when you can punish a move or not (ie, whether you can hit the person before they are allowed to block).
Recovery frames is just the amount of time after the active part of the move is over, but before you are allowed to act again. But a move can have a ton of recovery frames and still be safe on block, because when you block it, you are put in something called “block stun”, which means you also aren’t allowed to do anything. If a move has 2 seconds of recovery (120 frames), which is a loooong time, but also puts you in 120 frames of block stun, then the move won’t be punishable.
“Advantage on block” is the super nice, convenient number that combines recovery and block stun, letting you know how much sooner or later than your opponent you are allowed to attack. If a move is -10 on block, then that means, after all is said and done and you have left block stun, your opponent will still be recovering from his move for another 10 frames. So, you can use any move with 10 frames of startup or faster, and the move will hit him guaranteed. If a move is +2 on block, that means you get to act 2 frames before your opponent does! So if you press a button with 6 frames of startup and your opponent presses something with 5 frames of startup, you will still hit him first, despite your move being slower… you had a 2 frame head start. Being “plus on block” is very good in fighting games, because it gives you an underlying advantage. You get to act first, so some options that are normally kinda slow and bad now become good. Your opponent needs to respect your “frame advantage”, or else he is going to get hit.
The most important frame data numbers are “startup” and “advantage on block”. Stuff like “active frames” is nice for figuring out meaty attacks (ie, attacking over top of someone who is knocked down, so they stand up directly into your attack)… moves with lots of active frames make meaty attacks easier to time, because the window is bigger. But as someone just trying to get into frame data, you don’t have to worry too much about that for now.
Some important numbers for you:
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The fastest normal in the game is 5 frames of startup. Everybody has at least one normal that has 5 frames of startup. This means everybody can punish moves that are -5 or worse (as long as you are in range). This also means moves that are -4 are “safe on block” (for the most part). You will get to act 4 frames after your opponent, so you will probably lose if you try to press a button, but you will be able to block their normals.
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Some characters have special moves that have 3 frames of startup… they are usually DPs (Jago, Orchid, Fulgore, among others), which means they can punish some -3 on block moves that other characters can’t. This is a big deal! Hisako’s light command grab has small range, but is also 3 frames of startup. Raam’s shadow command grab is an astonishing 1 frame of startup, making even -1 on block moves unsafe against it. It is by far the fastest move in the game and there is no other move like it.
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Yes, startup frames just lets you know how long it takes a move to become active (how long it takes for it to “hit”) - whether a move will land “in time” from there will depend on what the opponent did beforehand.
Active frames, as @Infilament said, is mostly useful for figuring out good meaties. How active a move is generally isn’t terribly important outside of knockdown situations, except for very special situations or moves. And while I suppose you can think of recovery as “self-inflicted stun”, a better way to think of it is simply “follow through” for a move - how long it takes you to be able to act again after you perform the move. As Infil stated, recovery is generally less important than the “advantage on hit/block” categories, as even long recoveries can be fine so long as they also lock the opponent down with you. The only time you will 100% feel the wrath of recovery frames is if you flat-out whiff a move. For instance, when you try to throw someone and he neutral jumps, you’re impending punish is due to the high number of recovery frames on throws in KI.
It should be noted that if you look at frame data for pretty much any other fighting game, the first active frame of a move is already added to the startup section.
For example, in SFV, Nash’s jab has a startup of 3 + 1 active frame, so it is denoted as a 4 frame startup.
I’m just gonna plug my frame data spread sheet right here: KIFrameData
Currently buying another cord, since I need one for my controller to work on PC. Once I get another one, I’ll be updating it some more.
I think you’re speaking in Street Fighter terms, not Killer Instinct.
KI would list a 9 in the startup column for this button, right?
And this is a 4?