Combat Feedback Wanted; Help Shape the Future of KI! (Breakers and Potential Damage)

I like this idea, go for it.

Ideas that popped up while reading some of this thread… shorter matches do not sound fun, could we get a global damage reduction to balance out all this new damage we will be claiming (L4 and L5 damage enders become more common, and those things hurt!)?


semi off topic, but this all feels like trying to stop guess breaking… aren’t there other ways we could punish guess breaking?

Seems like we could punish lock-outs more (I don’t have the answers, but making guess breaking painful should be the goal), how about locking-out costs yourself some PD… first frame guess cost more than last frame guess? Or HEAVY lock-out cost more than a LIGHT lock-out (because you should have waited and watched for which strength it was).

Another idea, everybody has a break meter, and that meter gets locked-out, instead of specific combos getting locked-out, so a lock-out could last through a reset? Or until you hit your opponent, or you have to successfully break just to remove the lockout, then you can actually break. (oh, I really like that one, lock-outs are timed just like they are now, then they go into a “prove you can break” state, where your next break is just to remove the otherwise permanant “lock-out”/punishment.. but you could still be countered on that attempt…)

Lock-out could get progressively worse/longer… 2nd lockout lasts longer than first, 4th lock-out of the match, sorry, you’re locked out for 10 seconds, stop guessing…

1 Like

I think it won’t break down cleanly like that for the most part. Keep in mind that in most situations the damage increase on a combo is most significantly coming from increasing ender level, not the raw PD. An ender level is only 10 PD–about 2.5%–but for someone like raam the difference between each ender level is about 5%. So, at 10.0 PD (or 9.9, forget how the break points work) you’re doing a pretty hefty chunk less than you are with 0.1 more PD. Raam also gets even more damage at higher levels in instinct due to the extended animations of his high-level damage enders repeatedly cashing out the small PD buildup.

I imagine I’m just explaining stuff you already get the general gist of, but my point is: post nerf you’re going to see either smaller damage differences (2-4%, maybe) or big ones (8-10%, maybe) depending on the combo and how much PD they already had on them.

Mmmmm, I’d rather not touch the breaker system.

2 Likes

Yep, my question is oriented at exactly getting know the exact number of those scenarios you mentioned

This change will probably do a lot or not much. I imagine it’ll feel like a small increase for one chanxes, but i have no idea what the effect will be for level2/3 pd combos. One worry i have is tusk’s skewer. With this change it kinda seems like there womt ever really be a reason to break it, due to counterbreak and the pd sticking

Uh oh…

I would say at least buff the damage on Cinder’s Enders to balance it out a bit, but I’m biased and I haven’t seen the change for myself at all yet.

I don’t know how I feel about Omen’s DD going back to the way it was though if it’s suppose to make it harder to land. I thought it was changed to how it is now BECAUSE it was already hard to land and this just made it only a little easier. Does changing it back to how it was make that much of a difference if it’s still hard to land?

1 Like

I’ve got to ask. I keep seeing mention of quick rise. I’ve asked how to do a quick rise (out quick stand) and was told to hit any attack button immediately upon hitting the deck after soft knock down, but it never works. At least shadow lab data never records it. How exactly do I do a quick stand? Is it possible?

@TheKeits The change could be good. What if …

PD recovery speed is 50% slower , with a combo breaker you don’t recovery any but if the opponent confirms a hit first then you lost 80% of the PD you have left. But if you , the player who broke the combo , confirms a hit first you gain 80% of the PD you have at that moment

I genuinely want to facepalm every time I see someone say “KI doesn’t punish guess breaking”…

You’d be surprised how easy it is to land the fully invincible DD. In its original state, landing the move meant the Omen player had friggen earned it - in S3 it’s more likely that someone just got caught doing a special with an unfortunate number of active and recovery frames. If the PD isn’t going to go away entirely if Omen’s broken on the follow-up, then yeah, DD needs to be back to where Omen has to seriously earn hitting someone with it.

5 Likes

flipouts would depend of the strenght of the combo breaker like when you hit a heavy combo breaker the opponent doesnt flip. Only flips for medium and light combo breakers. Making the match even more challenging.

Cinder’s trailblazer should be buffed. Its too weak on hit, slow and work more for mobility than a special move. Original Cinder’s trailblazer had a minimum of 2 hits per trailblazer. His backdash should be changed to a large flipout instead of his rollback to make it faster taking advantage of the air.

The rest is OK. Just a little request. Give Gargos a special condition to do his triple or quad ultra like have the first bar or instinct full. It was way too funny. He’s the boss of this game. He deserve it.

Alright, I got into this thread late so I’m gonna offer an opinion without regard to much of what has already been said. If this has been discussed or covered I apologize for not coming to speed with the full thread and it’s 145 responses at the time of reading this.

Overall, I think the changes shown here are actually an improvement to the breaker game overall, and I do really like the idea of a not all of the PD being lost on a successful breaker. At first I was a little bit reluctant of the change, but the more I though about it, the more I realized how incredibly beneficial this is and how one sided the successful breaker situation is now given the total loss of momentum in some cases by the total lose of PD. A successful breaker nets you a complete reset on the offensive front, a pass on a potentially high damage combo, and given how some juggles present within the game for almost all characters now, its almost to easy to predict at least one point in which the opponent can correctly nail the break. The only counter balance to it is a 3 second lockout which doesn’t always benefit the opposer very much given if it’s late in the combo when KD is close to maxed out.

With the half PD rule in play, it lays real consequence to the opponent regardless of how easily they break or shift momentum and rewards the aggressor for the successful play up until the point of the break without of total loss of momentum, when sometimes the reward of a 3 second lockout isn’t much of a help when the opponent messes up.

As for the delay in PD restoration, I wouldn’t mind this change either, but the delay shouldn’t be much longer than it is now, maybe a second or so more, but that would be it. I would add that anytime that an opponent is in a hard knockdown state, I don’t think they should be able to heal any PD while they are in hard knockdown.

I will say this, as a Cinder player, this concerns me greatly given this character has a VERY hard time building up level 4 enders and good damage combos at all already. While I understand the change to the PD on break would help change some of this, and a further delay would give him some time to get back into offense, this character’s PD reductions seem like it would make it difficult to reach a level 4 ender EVER, if his PD building moves are hit too hard. There have been some instances where even if I spend shadow meter, building up a level 4 combo is a high mountain to climb. I think you’d have to be real careful with him in order to prevent him from having his damage becoming borderline pitiful, and I would think that maybe his heavy autos could be adjusted slightly to do better PD, but that can be visited as a separate character balance issue.

Overall, I think the changes planned sound pretty good logically. I would just be careful of not making the delay on PD regen too long, and maybe remove it while the opponent is in a hard knockdown.

Good to have you back by the way Keits.

I’ll go out on my own here and say that I don’t think this change is a good one.

It might be showing positively in-house, but the people whining about guess breaking aren’t in-house. Even as a RAAM player, who would ultimately benefit from this change, I don’t think it’s something that could benefit the game.

Considering how high powered offense is in this game, you’re going to get hit. It’s pretty much guaranteed. Shadow Counters got a buff because they were too weak to be a viable option (in many cases) for the defender to get out of “infinites”. Now we’re talking about nerfing a the defenders only way of avoiding 60-80% combos.

Leaving PD on the table after a break will only make the original attacker more powerful, much like what UMvC3 turned into with the incoming mixups, albeit not to that degree.

Edit: I agree with @STORM179 in that the guess breaking "problem " is something that is blown out of proportion and, most of the time, at high level, that “guess break” was a read based off player habits, so I don’t think last change needs to be made at all

5 Likes

Lock-out could get progressively worse/longer… 2nd lockout lasts longer than first, 4th lock-out of the match, sorry, you’re locked out for 10 seconds, stop guessing…*

JUST FOR GUESS BREAKERS , MISS TIME BREAKERS JUST 3 SECONDS

1ST LOCKOUT 3 SECONDS .
2ND LOCKOUT 4.5 SECONDS
3RD LOCKOUT AND NEXTS 6 SECONDS

LEARN TO BREAK , DONT GUESS. MAKE COUNTER BREAKERS GREAT AGAIN !!! LOL.

1 Like

sigh…

1 Like

I think it’s a good idea. Though 50% might be a bit much. I could already see myself abusing that with Aganos’ payload combos. Like others mentioned this would likely mean adjustments for cinder or raam. Or omen’s demonic despair. Though personally I always wanted that move to be a cash out that cost 2 bars for omen.

I like the change…I feel it should have been this way all along. I cant stand to land DD and then get broken on a guess break and they immediatly get back 100% health…so not cool.

The same for resets as well…you work so hard to keep it going only to get broken and loose all that PD.

It can turn the tide of a game dramatically.

Semi off topic…But what about characters that cant cash out PD on juggles…like OMEN?

Juggles dominate the game right now which creates a ton of PD…shouldn’t he be able to cash out? He isnt a juggle heavy character so why not be able to cash out?

Thunder for instance can juggle juggle juggle…create PD, get broken…its lingering and all he needs to do is get a quick juggle to shadow sammish in for complete cash out.

I never had any trouble landing it in S2 so the change didnt effect me. Changing back wont either as I really dont use it enough to worry. Im more worried about the PD cash out.

First, thank you for involving the community on this possible implementation.
Second, I don’t feel all on board with the suggested change. I am an average player at best and have a moderate understanding of all the game’s mechanics. For me, landing a combo breaker makes me feel like it is my opportunity to take the offensive and help put the match in my favor. I stopped the attack, so I have another chance.
I feel with constantly having potential damage on the table, I would be far more inclined to play more defensively after a breaker. I don’t want to lose any more health than I already have, so I am going to do my best not to risk it.
It would take away that feeling of, I have a chance to go in if I would lose more life in the process to a mix up or bad button or any number of things. I like KI and the feeling that every match I have a chance because of the breaker system.
This is not to say the decision would in any way be bad, but it has me a little worried about how I would feel during a match in regards to how I play and how I enjoy the game. From an average standpoint.
Thanks again for everyone providing their feedback and for IG keeping us in the loop.

I really like the idea, I think it will help make neutral in KI of even greater importance. I think the change will help some characters, and GREATLY help others. Although after having time to think on how it would truly effect the cast I can say that this would be great to see. My concerns initially were that of Jago, Cinder, RAAM, for example. Shadow fireball building PD, inferno, and the PD that gets built from a RAAM combo string is large. But like you said you’d adjust it. The initial concern I had was that if these characters decided to let their combos roll, and then bet on opening the opponent for a short combo but near immediate level 4 potential. If they get broken, 50% PD goes down, but again are brought back up to speed of a level 4 combo in short work IF they open their opponent.

However, with this proposed change, that would be very akin to what we have now anyways. I think it’s more even this way, you get a reward for breaking the combo, but you can’t simply go ham after the break. The offender gets a reward for opening their opponent, and has a chance to do even bigger damage. With the damage output that some characters have I worry about the possibility of a very quick level 4 combo.

Characters I think it would help would be those that do very little damage, Aria, Shago, Omen. I think it would help RAAM in that he can take more time to play his archetype in a match, but again I worry about the disproportionate big damage he could deal.

In short, I really like the idea, but in some cases I think the damage potential could be a bit staggering making me think that some characters would need a damage reduction. It emphasizes neutral, and makes the offender feel rewarded for playing the proper neutral, or opening up their opponent. It also rewards the breaker slighty in that they got the right read and they dropped some PD, but they also will be more aware that they messed up and the next move could be costly.

These are my immediate thoughts as to what I see proposed. I’d like to see it in practice, but I’m definitely for the idea!

I like the idea. My worries are about balancing but you guys already know that characters with PD gimmicks will need adjusting so I’m sure you guys can do it.

How the game handles successive short combos? For example I do 20 PD and get broken. The enemy has 10 PD. I start a new combo and do 6 PD and get broken again. Does the enemy have 13 PD or 8 PD?

I ask because one thing to consider is if the attacker will prefer shorter or longer combos. Ideally I’d want attackers to prefer longer combos so maybe some incentive for doing them? Or at least making it not matter (in above example if result is 8 PD then it doesn’t matter).

First and foremost before address for feedback I would like you to incorporate first season four or whatever direction you’re going for to include a seasonal storyline like you had in the past with the murals Include a decently progressive storyboard with the progression of characters stories as compared to the RPG like element base side of it where you don’t get to see Jager is continuing story line orchids continuing story line etc. etc. I primarily play this game in single player mode due to time constraints in my life and I really enjoyed the story mode’s so I ask of you to please bring it back. I actually would like to see you do something new were combo breaker’s maybe at how they are done in the first place Not everybody is graded frame reading no matter how many times I do the tutorial I can hold my own but I do mess up a lot I would say my read rate to combo break is maybe 60- 40- 60% I can’t 40% I can with honesty. I think it would be interesting tonight recover potential damages fast but you could actually do some other things as well and maybe instead of a combo breaker that only add a combo breaker but a possible combo Perry not a move that can be done constantly but as an example say you miss account a breaker maybe you get another shot but not as a counter breaker but as a counter Perry so you can’t or Perry and you can do a brief combo just to get out. Implement something like that and I think the game would be very intricate because it would just be the rock paper scissors scenario where you have shadow counter counter breaker and combo breaker and combos photo to also give you something in between that would throw it and mix it up a little I think something like this would would open up room for Perry faking or even the idea of better footsie’s in the game Just my thought.