This is a awesome idea, it would just give a more clear view on how all this would work/look in practice.
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While I do like this suggestion, I don’t believe we’ll have time in our schedules to do this.
First off, @TheKeits ! Great to see you again! Now onto my thoughts.
To be quite honest, I would be more than fine with just the change to PD having the second or two of delay before it starts depleting. I think the game is extremely balanced right now across the board (system mechanics/character archetypes) and think one of the absolute best things to do for the game would be to just let it rock for a few years with the current meta. Who knows of what all could be discovered with the current balance as is. The one thing I fear about specific changes like this is, “Would the community have developed something to counter [current problem] if given enough time with the game and not having it change?”
Although to be fair, I think these changes would be a great benefit to characters like Shadow Jago where if he gets broken on his low PD building combo, he would then get rewarded just a tiny bit more for the post-combo breaker mixup and make his toolkit that much more threatening.
I will agree with @STORM179 on his worries about Counter Breakers being less used by people because of these potential changes. I still think Counter Breakers are the least used mechanic in the game which has always baffled me. I think that alone was always an extremely potent deterrent to Combo Breakers. Once again though, this is something that would have to be seen first before any logical conclusions could be made.
@TheKeits Couple of last questions:
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If this balance change is going to be implemented based on the discussions here and there ends up being no overwhelming conclusion on what the community would want, would you still be willing to take the risk and push it into the game to see how it works in a live setting (beyond what you guys have done internally)?
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How long would you be willing to let a change like this stay in the public build of the game? I guess what I mean is, say if people start complaining a few months after this came out, would you be willing to try reverting it back ASAP or would you let it continue to rock for several more months and see what positive and negative criticisms come of it?
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wouldn’t that mean that some of the crazy matchups that do tons of damage like General RAAM against Tusk, Raam would be at a disadvantage against someone like Tusk who personifies Heavy Maximum Damage, Potential or not
I love the amount of information provided here with the thought process behind the changes that are being promoted.
I wish politics was this easy… too soon?
anywayyyyyyyyyy I never really thought to myself … you know what KI needs? It’s another change to the breaker system… but you know what… the idea sounds like a good addition to the already implemented changes to this area.
I think it would also be cool as others have mentioned to see the changes in action early as well to give early feedback before a more permanent change is in order.
I miss Kan Ra 
Shinku
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this seems to be an aim to punish guess breaking (which is becoming a more and more popular tactic, even among top players). I understand how frustrating it can be to be immediately broken by a guess breaker but could this not also punish too hard those that break honestly…?
Just curious really…
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We have a whole team of designers here who will make the final call, based on what we read in this thread. It isn’t just up to me.
I think the combat team has pretty clearly been flexible and willing to turn back changes that didn’t play out the way we had hoped.
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I apologize, I don’t mean as in you by yourself, I know you have a very talented team but you’re the person here with us in the thread so I thought it’d be easiest to say you!
I admire that about you guys but there are some times where I wish you guys would have let some of the balance stuff stay implemented for a bit longer (like launch Gargos, for example). I’m not saying I dislike it, but it’s always fun to speculate on what could have been if the community was given just a tiny bit more time with the balance at the time. Regardless of what I personally think, I know you @developers are super dedicated to your jobs and know what’s best! No matter what happens, KI will still be my most favorite competitive game of all time!
I think the change will alleviate some frustrations with getting guess broken. It’ll also create a “predator” and “prey” meta when a break happens and both players see a juicy 50% of potential damage left to take or defend. I’m all for the change.
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I definitely like the idea of potential damage sticking around for a bit longer. Would make the moves that provide it without any means for immediate follow up (like Tusk’s skewer) a bit more useful outside of a Counter-Break. Makes it a little more noticeable.
I’m a little cautious about how the change to potential damage (and breakers) would effect characters like RAAM and Mira, since I do like their Really High Risk-Glorious Reward playstyles. My biggest concern would be “normalization” of these characters, where they become more well rounded but don’t hit as hard when they succeed. I mean, we already have characters that fill that niche. I like having some wild cards that take work but can basically destroy you with a single touch if you make a mistake fighting against them.
Still, I’m open to the idea. These potential damage changes could be interesting. I trust that characters like Tusk and Mira will still hit like runaway ice cream vans, because that’s what makes me love them as much as I do.
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They sure will.
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Hmm… Where have I heard this idea before?
In particular, this made me laugh:
Great minds bla bla bla…
Anyway, when I previously thought of this, it was at the height of the “guess breaking is bad” trend that occurs bimonthly. I thought it might be a way to satisfy those outspoken views indirectly, as opposed to other contrived suggestions which included not being able to combo break for x seconds if your DP was blocked. I thought of it mostly as a “what if?”, with possible unforeseen negative consequences of varying significance. Obviously PD heavy characters would need to be adjusted, which I’m glad was addressed.
One thing that was brought last time by @SithLordEDP, which I think is a valid concern, is that it might seem punishing towards players who play the combo breaker game patiently. You might be less willing to wait and figure out your opponent’s combo pattern and instead try to break early (with/without guessing) so that you’re not constantly stacking PD on yourself.
The offensive player might also not care as much about being broken. For example, Thunder might just opt for damage-heavy combos all of the time, which he is already afforded by the fear of a counter breaker. If he gets broken several times, he says “meh”, then hits you with one of his absurd mixups and then one-chances you into a high level ender with his top-tier damage.
In general, I like it, of course. It probably reduces some “randomness” in the outcome of the match (which I think is usually overstated by many). I think the balancing, however, might come down to what percentage of PD is left over after the combo breaker, be it 50% or something lower. I think some character’s risk/reward might be unintentionally pushed higher just because of how the math works out. I think that can really only be judged by the “feel” of it, and I’d trust IG’s judgment of that over mine.
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So, if we decide to go through with this, when can we expect to get the change?
I think this is a great idea, and I fully support the change.
It would, at a higher playing level, lead to a more defensive play style in certain situations. Right now there’s too much mindless offense. The risk is always minimal because you can always combo break, and counter breakers are hard to land consistently.
It would also help against characters that tend to be suffocating in the neutral. Kan Ra, Gargos, Aria, Eyedol, Jago, Glacius, etc. Combo breakers greatly benefit a character that can control space well because the break always puts them in a position of advantage (they work better at mid-to-full screen). Getting immediately broken after losing 25% of your health getting in is really hard to overcome. This change would help.
The only thing I’m worried about, which has been mentioned, is the large PD some characters can build without ever putting you in a combo. Those characters need to be properly adjusted.
In Season 3, there isn’t a huge reward for counter breaking or lock outs so guess breaking is rampant and rewarding. Couple that with the hard-read based change to counter breakers and you’ve got a strategy to safely guess break combos in situations where the probability of success is usually 50%.
Looking forward to see if this change equalizes the risk:reward ratio a bit and rewards reactionary and defensive play over wild offense.
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If we do this, it would be in 3.6. I think 3.5 is coming to you guys before Thanksgiving, and it would not include this change, though it does have some balance tweaks of its own.
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Swear to god paul, with nearly every post you make when I read it I double take because you make it sound like you know nothing about the game.
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I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m happy to elaborate on any of the points I made if you’re interested in discussion.
I worry less about the characters that do huge PD and more the ones that are designed to start a bunch of ticky-tacky little combos (Shago, Omen, Sadira) now being juggernaughts. When they win three neutral battles for every one you do as a slower character, the lesser damage in the combo and break potential gets you back with minimum sapping. But if they are getting half as much damage again two to three times more frequently than you are, I think life bars will just melt away.
on the front page … and it should also be tweeted out if it hasn’t been!